The Syndicate

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:A lot of things surprised me in this game. G-Man's lynch for one, MP had a legitimate derpclear. Why Trice was suddenly taking a whole lot of heat I never quite understood (or whether it was for correct reasons). Basically after I was voted out the game became more and more unfathomable as I tore my hair out screaming WHY AREN'T YOU LYNCHING JAY AND DOM!!!!
Between my replacement getting lynched and everyone in and outside of the game in Lost Again thinking that I was mafia, I'm convinced nearly everyone on this site can't read me for shit.

No way! The civ-slip Golden picked up one was one I believed in, and the only reason i voted you (G-Man) was to save myself.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Civilians are toast, so please kill me tonight.
This was a post I'd been keeping in my back pocket and is the main reason I killed Epi instead of MM. This post told me that MM had nothing left to use against me.

I only said that because I was vanilla, and knew my role would be useless in an endgame scenario.

And I was dominating the lynch discussion, which didn't help matters.

Epignosis wrote:
G-Man wrote:
Epignosis wrote:G-Man should have never replaced MP. That salvaged the serial killer.

Walk of shame, G-Man. Walk of shame.
Do I feel bad about contributing to Jimmy's victory? Not really. My lack of understanding of what came before my subbing in certainly speaks to the dangers of subbing someone in cold so late into a post-heavy game but I can live with contributing to a serial killer victory much more than had I aided in a mafia win. Serial killers have the odds stacked against them from the start, so it's nice to see one pull it off every now and then.

It did make sense that Jimmy was the SK based on what little I gleaned from what little I read. The reason I pulled him off the poll was to force us into discussing who else might be bad. Otherwise we might have just lazy lynched Jimmy and not thought about the next baddie. I didn't want us slacking off. I also wanted to try to force the mafia into killing Jimmy. Mafia teams often seem to let the civvies deal with the serial killer because it saves them a kill. I wanted the mafia to still feel threatened.

It all bit me in the butt and taught me a lesson about cold-subbing. I probably won't do it again.

I loved all the attention to detail. I never feel adequate as a game designer, so I love seeing games with lots of secrets that don't gum up the works. Well done Rico!
I actually can't fault you for that G. That makes sense.

Still,

Ture. It almost got me lynched instead.

Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Any endgame scenario is up to the host Rico. You did what you thought was best, and it's not like you could have asked us what we thought beforehand.

I think the best rule of thumb is that civilians must be able to control a lynch to continue playing. 50% of the votes does not meet that requirement, so 1 vs. 1 without extra votes or a lynch protection would always be a civilian loss.
I'd argue that the condition should be one where there no longer exists a (feasible) scenario for a civilian win, so if it's 1v1 with ties determined by the coin toss, so be it.

The problem with this is that the SK is already a loner from the getgo. To resort to a coin flip when he manages to reduce the civilians down to 1 would be too unfair to such a role.

Quin wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Aye, good game Jay. You did well.

Linki: I bet Rico won't actually tell us.
This might come as a shock, but uh, LoRab and I knew you were civ since Day 2. But we still had our tin foils on that you were the SK because LoRab's insanification was an outlier

I'm confused, why did LoRab's insanification give you pause?

Thanks for the game Rico! The way you hosted, the attention to details each day and night, and the excellent theme-related content all along made this tons of fun.

And all three teams made it to LYLO. Doesn't get much better than that.

DrWilgy wrote:Lol, I should've skipped the NK night 8. Didn't think about the numbers until it was too late.

Gg, sorry the holidays kept me from voting on time.

That's ok. I think it just lost you any hope of winning. :P

Epignosis wrote:I am going to gloat like hell.

I saw why INH shouldn't be lynched (no info). I saw why A Person shouldn't be lynched (no info). I DID have info on Boomslang.

Then I stayed firm on 3J being the serial killer on the basis of a skipped kill. I saw through that bullshit.

Too bad there wasn't one more civilian around.

Maybe if you people would have listened to me early on.

Nah, I figured you out pretty early, even if I had the roles wrong. I thought I did a decent job of listening.

I used my power Night 2 because I thought I wouldn't last very long in the game, and it made sense to get it out of the way.

Aye, good game Jay. You did well.

Linki: I bet Rico won't actually tell us.

I think I'll pour another glass of wine.

Yay I was right!

Epignosis wrote:Despite how things turn out, and despite how much criticism I got, I feel like this was perhaps my best civilian performance.

And you and I climb over the sea to the valley.

I saw JaggedJimmyJay with the devil.

Bleh.

Linki: This is true.

But I've read you as civilian since Night 2. It may have been for the wrong reasons, but it's enough reason to eliminate you.

Linki x2: I do follow. I loathe the predicament where I'm deciding who wins based on who deserves it.

Epignosis wrote:Is MM even a civilian? There's been no conclusive evidence of that.

I would have killed you a while ago if I had that ability.

Hopefully I'll be back before the deadline, but our family is celebrating Christmas tonight, so we're starting dinner and things now.

I likely won't change my vote though.

I am considering voting DrWilgy. Based on his subtitution timing and activity since then, he's a less than ideal player to have in LYLO (no offense Wilgy).

I just wished we could have lynched him earlier.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:and a probable mafia candidate.
You think I killed sig and left myself here with Epignosis? Am I suicidal?

After you changed your read on Epignosis to civilian, your next post suggested the strategy of lynching a civilian, not lynching DrWilgy. I don't think that mindset comes from a civilian.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Not even on The Syndicate can I recall a game where a 1v1 scenario including a civilian doesn't end the game immediately except where extra votes or lynch protections exist. That exception applies to Talking Heads and Mad Max.
This is Ricochet you're dealing with. I make no assumptions.
1v1 as a coin flip is an assumption.

It is in the rules though.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Y'all can act like this is some hokey attempt at manipulation or you can do basic math.

If we do lynch a civilian today and the SK is still alive, we'd still need to have the SK and mafia target each other. Also, survival is required for a civilian to win. I'm not sacrificing myself at this point.

There are secrets in play, and the coinflip scenario to consider. As we've seen throughout this game, I don't think we can expect the simplest outcome to be the most likely one.

I think voting for my strongest suspect is my best option. I see you as a likely SK candidate and a probable mafia candidate. I can't imagine DrWilgy being the SK based on activity, but I still do consider him a mafia candidate.

Linki: Well I hope this answers your question Epignosis.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:What do you think about the SK? Do you think it's still alive?
Epi looks cleared. It's not me. Your self-vote implies you see my reasoning and are opting for sacrifice, and if you were the SK I don't think you'd be so quick to respond that way. Wilgy's slot has been absent and would have missed a kill.

It's either you employing master WIFOM or the SK is just dead. I lean to the latter.
Questions for you.

1) I was quick to self-vote (as I often am). You don't think the SK is still alive, or you think that it's more likely that it's dead, so why would my self-vote be useful?

2) If you are a civilian, why would you not offer yourself up for a lynch first?
1) Your mindset is not the same as my mindset. Your action implies you believe the SK is alive. Do you not?

2) I don't think the SK is alive, meaning the lynch must be Mladic. I think that's Wilgy.

I'm not convinced the SK is dead. There is evidence, but not enough of it. Namely the fact that Rico said a failed kill would be announced.

I also don't plan on following through on your idea. I just wanted to see your reaction.

Vote JaggedJimmyJay

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:What do you think about the SK? Do you think it's still alive?
Epi looks cleared. It's not me. Your self-vote implies you see my reasoning and are opting for sacrifice, and if you were the SK I don't think you'd be so quick to respond that way. Wilgy's slot has been absent and would have missed a kill.

It's either you employing master WIFOM or the SK is just dead. I lean to the latter.

Questions for you.

1) I was quick to self-vote (as I often am). You don't think the SK is still alive, or you think that it's more likely that it's dead, so why would my self-vote be useful?

2) If you are a civilian, why would you not offer yourself up for a lynch first?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Can anyone see a flaw in that logic or something I'm missing? There are a ton of dynamics to these roles.

If the SK is still alive, it sounds reasonable (and exactly like the scenario we ran into in the live game last night).

What do you think about the SK? Do you think it's still alive?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:That's a good look for you MM, to immediately react with a self-vote.

Yeah thanks.

What are you going to do about it?

Metalmarsh89

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:One thing that occurs to me now is that Quin/LoRab could have been 9-15-00 while Epi/Boomslang could be M=R. I'm not sure there's a reason to assume one or the other.

Quin/Sloonei voted for LoRab on Day 3, so I doubt they are 09-15-00.

Thanks Rico!

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:M=F's role check doesn't work in a way that allows for a conclusive clearance of a living player.

What do you mean?

Ricochet wrote:Randomly, one player will be assigned to role check a living player every odd Night. If the checked player is Mafia, it will have a 50% chance to also kill him.

This reads to me like one of the two roles gets the chance to rolecheck a player on odd nights, and if that player is mafia, that player has a 50% chance of dying.

Ricochet: Does M=F learn the role of the player he/she targets on odd nights?

DrWilgy wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Well, regardless of whether Epignosis and Boomslang had BTSC or not, we still have these two rainbows from Quin/LoRab.

Quin wrote:Mafia Dawn Thoughts:

Epi
LoRab

Wilgy
Dom
3J
MM
sig
And they both listed Epignosis as civilian. Considering they're probably M=F and had a rolecheck, that's a read I can believe.
So you think JJJ and I are the remaining baddies still?

Yes, in that order.

Well, regardless of whether Epignosis and Boomslang had BTSC or not, we still have these two rainbows from Quin/LoRab.

Quin wrote:Mafia Dawn Thoughts:

Epi
LoRab

Wilgy
Dom
3J
MM
sig

And they both listed Epignosis as civilian. Considering they're probably M=F and had a rolecheck, that's a read I can believe.

I don't know DrWilgy. I'm going to sleep on it.

Epignosis wrote:I have my office now. I can consider all sides to all arguments and am willing to do that, although my interactions will be sporadic given that there is still much for me to do.

You'll be forever handicapped until you sit forward in your chair.

Every time I think I have things figured out, Ricochet comes along and fucks my mind like the deranged tyrant that he is.

Well that changes things.

DrWilgy wrote:No, I just misspelled Epi's name

Why did you not submit a NK Marmot?

I tried, but that's not part of my role description.

I'm going to bed as well. See y'all on the morrow.

Linki: Welcome to my entire mafia career Jay.

DrWilgy wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Epignosis: I'm left agreeing with MM's perspective of you after reviewing all the other combinations and isolating Golden as a likely Gasoline/Sunshine role. So I need you to listen to me. The civilian faction will lose the game if I am lynched whether you believe me or not.

Ask yourself one core question, please:

Why do I as a killing role stroll into a final phase with you alive, knowing full well that you've wanted me dead for much of the game? Why also do I decide to turn the crosshairs against you, the most difficult lynch on the board, unless it's what I really believe in?
Counter question. What would prompt you to kill Sig instead of Epi?

You admitted to not paying attention last night. Is that why you killed sig?

Epignosis wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Epignosis, I'm waiting for an answer.
I'm on a friggin phone so I'm missing posts left and right.

Basically timmer stood up for you when I questioned your survival.
Well in that case, Merry Christmas.

He did? I'll have to look then.
I saw that one, you turd.

I'm not gleaning anything from timmer's posts. He does appear to drop hints, and perhaps he could have saved a lynch of me somehow, but I find it hard to believe because he voted for me in the first place.

Based on the public role descriptions, I don't know what he could have done.

Epignosis wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Epignosis, I'm waiting for an answer.
I'm on a friggin phone so I'm missing posts left and right.

Basically timmer stood up for you when I questioned your survival.

Well in that case, Merry Christmas.

He did? I'll have to look then.

Epignosis, I'm waiting for an answer.

DrWilgy wrote:Hmm... now that I thunk about it. SK and Mafia probably just targeted the same person.

JJJ did you consider this possibility?

Linki- Sorry Epi, I must've missed that.

Epignosis wrote:Did 3J ever ask what the timmer factor was? That's a question I'd expect him to ask.

I doubt it. Golden was targetted by both on Night 3, and Ricochet explicitly revealed such.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Nah, I think it's possible.

Golden wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
triceratopzeuhl wrote:What if, e.g., Sunshine + Gasoline's secret is that night powers targeting one will affect both of them?

Or if something in Mladic role (I believe he is probably the mafia insanifier) says "if you target one of a btsc pair it affects both of them" or something along those lines?
Possible.
I will let you down
What does that have to do with them identifying each other? Do you deny that the dynamic of their role makes no sense if they're allowed to do that?

They begin Day 1 not knowing who the other is.

They may send each other a message each night. One single message each day/night cycle. It is BTSC, just not in the standard chatzy sense.

That quote I pulled. Trice suggested that Sunshine+Gasoline would be simultaneously targeted with the insanification curse. Golden was cursed, but responded with his usual "No" answer. I conclude that he was saying "No, targetting one will not affect both of them".

Nah, I think it's possible.

Golden wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
triceratopzeuhl wrote:What if, e.g., Sunshine + Gasoline's secret is that night powers targeting one will affect both of them?

Or if something in Mladic role (I believe he is probably the mafia insanifier) says "if you target one of a btsc pair it affects both of them" or something along those lines?
Possible.
I will let you down

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Oh, and you cursed me, you killed my bride, you tried to lynch me three times, and you're willing to believe that Epignosis is more likely to be a mafioso than a simple civilian with BTSC.
Your current assignment is to look at the Golden/Niju interaction. Get busy.
Excellent! That accounts for the other round of civilian "BTSC" (Sunshine + Gasoline). Good eye Jay.
That's not BTSC. They don't know each other's ID and communicate through the host.

If I could communicate to another civilian through the host, I would tell them who I am and ask them not to lynch me (among other things).

It presumably amounts to BTSC.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Oh, and you cursed me, you killed my bride, you tried to lynch me three times, and you're willing to believe that Epignosis is more likely to be a mafioso than a simple civilian with BTSC.
Your current assignment is to look at the Golden/Niju interaction. Get busy.

Excellent! That accounts for the other round of civilian "BTSC" (Sunshine + Gasoline). Good eye Jay.

Welcome to the party DrWilgy. That puts all living players online at once!

Oh, and you cursed me, you killed my bride, you tried to lynch me three times, and you're willing to believe that Epignosis is more likely to be a mafioso than a simple civilian with BTSC.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Clearly.
I'll try this another way.

Consider two lynch survivals, regardless of who. Consider the mindsets of those players and the possible reasons for their survivals.

Then consider game balance and how people might feel about what they observe.
Done!

Vote JaggedJimmyJay
Okay. Why?

Trice and I tied for a lynch, but one survived (and trice's role implied it wasn't him).

You survived a lynch.

Game mechanics, balancing shit, and all that jazz suggest that one is a good lynch-survival and one is an evil lynch-survival.

Coincidentally, I came to the conclusion you are an evil marmot-slayer many days ago.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Clearly.
I'll try this another way.

Consider two lynch survivals, regardless of who. Consider the mindsets of those players and the possible reasons for their survivals.

Then consider game balance and how people might feel about what they observe.

Done!

Vote JaggedJimmyJay

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:You would be concerned if you are a civilian that the lynch-save is malicious.

You are trying to direct my head to the right place...

So I should be concerned that your lynch-save is malicious?
I don't think you're understanding me.

Clearly.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:I don't know why I wasn't lynched, nor even if I was the one who was supposed to die.

You implied some knowledge of the events around your lynch.

So, nope, I got nothing except oodles of wariness.
You're right that it isn't fully affirmed that you were the one saved in that lynch. I'm not going to role hint. All I can do is try to direct your head to the right place.

Ask yourself why I might be inordinately concerned when someone else survives a lynch?

You would be concerned if you are a civilian that the lynch-save is malicious.

You are trying to direct my head to the right place...

So I should be concerned that your lynch-save is malicious?

Search found 379 matches