The Syndicate

Grats Corp and thanks for the game DF!

This game nearly broke my heart. I haven't had an important civvie role in a long time; I was playing so hard. Harder than I had intended to play, but I felt like I had to because the baddies were manipulating the game so much and the civvies refused to step up. I see that DP was the civvie role checker. The civvies made a lot of mistakes, and we certainly didn't deserve to win, but I don't feel bad saying that DP probably singlehandedly lost the game for us by not playing and using his role.

A lot of my suspicions ended up correct although I was offbase on a few people. Lizzy pinged the hell out of me that one day; she is probably the person I am most surprised to see was a civvie. I had been thinking SVS was the civvie role checker because she seemed to know my role, and I deferred to her opinion on a lot of matters because of this, but deadTH started suspecting her when she went hard after CBK. SVS has said earlier in the thread that she didn't like hunting for serial killers, and that the people who do go after SKs are often baddies, but her actions later in the game went against this philosophy. I would have called her on it.

Vomp, why did you kill me instead of rezzing Hedgeowl? I've been waiting all game to ask this lol. I had just helped us lynch a baddie, in fact the only baddie that would have been a problem for an outted Hedgeowl, yet still you killed me I was so sure that Epi was the Undertaker at that point In a game where numbers ended up mattering, this could have drastically changed the game. We would have been up two civilians at that point, including a roleblocker that was outted. Instead we were down two civs for basically no reason.

I'd like to know why Mata's team killed her, especially so early. Her role would have been extremely useful during the early stages of the game. I was suspicious of Mata at the time and thought it was so weird that the baddies chose to kill her. What was the thought process there?

Lizzy wrote:Uhm... why am I still dead?

This tbqh

Hmmmm. That possibly affects my opinion of Vomp. Time to look over the roles again.

Epignosis wrote:If not, there's a bridge I can hide under.

Where is it? I feel like I might need a bridge to hide under tonight.

Lizzy wrote:

Turnip Head wrote: However Lizzy has pinged me multiple times the past few days.

Epi, Lizzy has voted for LouLou twice in a row (although without posting to go along with her vote), and yesterday Lou voted for Lizzy in retaliation. Do you suspect them of being on the same team or different ones?

*ping ping* Bad Lizzy! How dare you vote for LouLou without reiterating that case you've made over a 2 post span 'yesterday' (which I have barely noticed because I was too outraged that you dared bring me up with your cherry picking posts)?

I didn't say you voted for LouLou without reason, just that you didn't state either of your votes in any posts.

And I wasn't outraged by your awful, manipulative case against me. I was simply perplexed by it because it made no sense.

Good job guys

Which part of it doesn't make sense to you, Epi?

He probably couldn't think of anything funny to say for his vote.

Vomp's rez could also be related to a prize of some sort. I just don't like how quickly he was rezzed. Reminds me of when The Others rezzed Dom right after he died (although we were forced to do that, because if we didn't we would have lost our kill for the next 3 nights ). A rezzed Vomp is more useful if he's a baddie than if he's a civvie. Seems a wasted rez if it was done by a civvie. Baddies rezzing him makes more sense, since he's not likely to be lynched due to his style, and they would need him for his power.

Undertaker rezzed Mongoose on Night 4.

Re: Lizzy, I agree and I've probably seen some of the subtleties you're talking about. While we're on the subject, what do you think of Vomp and AP?

Vomp was NK'ed early on by the Corp on Night 3, but was rezzed almost immediately after on Day 4. Who do you think rezzed Vomp? And why? I don't know why anyone would so quickly rez someone, especially someone like Vomp who wasn't really contributing, unless that person was a teammate of his. It's possible the rez was an unwritten part of his role, but unlikely. He also survived a kill attempt a few nights ago.

AP survived the lynch on Day 1 and hasn't been discussed since. He did vote for MP, though one of the only things he's been clear on this entire game is that he did so because of some attachment to WOG, who was the other suspect that day. He's made some cameo appearances in the thread today but still hasn't voted or discussed where he's thinking of voting.

And what about Dex, who continues to vote for himself without posting?

No need to apologize Bass, feel free to jump in at any time I agree, I haven't been suspicious of LouLou although I think her style of posting is odd and wish she offered more of her thoughts and suspicions. However Lizzy has pinged me multiple times the past few days.

Epi, Lizzy has voted for LouLou twice in a row (although without posting to go along with her vote), and yesterday Lou voted for Lizzy in retaliation. Do you suspect them of being on the same team or different ones?

Interesting. Why LouLou? Why Lizzy?

If BWT hadn't been a suspect today, and you and I had never had our discussion that led you to vote for me again, who would you have gone after today? Part of the reason I suspect you of being BWT's teamie is that you spent all your energy today focused on that and not going on your own thoughts and suspicions, which you had been doing up until that point. It seemed that you latched onto my thoughts on BWT in a way you hadn't done in the game until this point. You had been playing your own game (and getting civs killed in the process :P , but this actually doesn't have much to do with why I was/am suspicious of you).

Yeah, I initially thought the silencer was a baddie team's secret. I amended that to be that the baddie team's secret is Steve Austin. Does that make sense?

It's a theory, possibly a wild one, but it's what I've got.

I'm not assuming he was recruited, I just think he has been. Perhaps BWT's lynch will shed more light on the possibility.

This is a really great game DF, you obviously put a lot of time into it. I wish you could be rewarded for that by having active and engaged players. The holiday break probably did cut into the playing time of some people in this game. Real life can be a bitch.

I believe you BWT. You're a good player, and I look forward to playing with you again in the future.

I was trying to say this earlier, but you were incredibly antagonistic toward a lot of my thoughts and I don't think you were getting the message. And maybe that frustration showed in my posts at the time. I think taking a step back toward the end of this lynch did a lot of good for my clarity and emotional wellbeing :P

I said before that I think Steve Austin's lack of a win condition is telling. His power is utterly useless if he's a true indy. Why would an indy care about taking people off the poll, especially the most suspicious people? It's some ifs and buts, but I'm not privy to all the secrets of the game, and my time playing mafia has taught me not to assume anything or take anything at face value.

I just really think he's bad. I know you said I'm poor at reading tone, but to be honest I think that's one thing that I'm really good at in mafia, and in the absence of actual evidence I have to go with my read of a person and stick to my gut. It's why I defended Mongoose and Hedge during their respective lynches, and it's why I didn't vote for MP (although I was wrong about him and got suckered, a mistake I hope to not make in future games). I've caught many baddies because of small things I've picked up on in their posts. You may have noticed I've called you out on small things as well. It's part of my process.

In addition to that, if BWT flips bad it will go a long way toward validating my theory that the silencer/remover, who we both agree is probably Stone Cold, has joined a team. I think we can learn some things from BWT's lynch. Going into today, he was my biggest suspect that we were allowed to vote for, so of course I went after him. I have other suspects, but given how quiet this game has been so far, I doubt I'd have gotten any traction against them. Especially since most of my suspects aren't really interested in playing/talking.

I knew what you meant, I guess I assumed that the drinking had already affected your typing fingers

More lost than ever before.

Well if it makes you feel any better, you're not great at reading my tone, either. :P

Why do you sound so defeated, Epi? I think I'm the only person who's voiced any suspicion of you so far, and SVS and Bea said they think you and I are having a civ vs civ tiff. You've had no problem arguing with me about other things in the game; don't you want to argue for your own life as well? Besides, if BWT comes back bad, it stands to reason that CBK is next in line. You've got some time to sort out your defenses (or NK me!).

The only thing I can say is that I hope there's more discussion tomorrow, after basically three straight lynches where the only people doing the majority of the talking were you, me, and whoever happened to be up for the lynch that day. I look forward to hashing this all out.

Wow you guys are annoying to try and talk to. I'm done trying for today. Nobody else is talking (seriously, where are all the civvies?!?) and the people I try to talk to won't engage in any meaningful conversation with me. I've brought up plenty of points, asked plenty of questions, but they only get answered with snide remarks and crypticness. Placing my vote on BWT now.

Epignosis wrote:Yeah, I'm responsible for everything that goes on in this game, we know already.

I never said anything to this effect. So stop trying to take credit for everything.

Epignosis wrote:As for trying to shut down any case on him, what the hell? I'm the only one in here ASKING for a case on birdwithteeth11. I keep asking, and you keep evading it. Then suddenly it's a private case.

And to you I say, what the hell? I've said why I think BWT is bad. Over and over again. Others have stated why they think BWT might be bad, too.

Epignosis wrote:Why do I have to voice any suspicion of birdwithteeth11? Are you waiting for ME to tell you what the case on him is so you and everybody else can follow suit?

Uh, nope. Whether or not you hop on the BWT Express is up to you. I'm not waitin for ya, buddy.

Lizzy wrote:Wtf? I thought I was the one whom people would follow to get rid of TH AND CBK's teammate. Get in line, Epi!

What does this mean, Lizzy? Did you mean to put my name in that sentence? I know you're being cheeky but I don't understand what your post means... especially considering that this is your first post of Day 8 and you didn't comment on anything else that's happening. In fact, this is your first post since before the Day 7 lynch post where CBK survived. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Epignosis wrote:Now it's your own private case, and I'm his teammate. After I voted for him right behind a civilian.

You keep using this as a defense for why I shouldn't think you and BWT are teammates. Yes, you voted for him after Hedge did, but you also led the assault on Hedge herself. And, other than that single vote on BWT, you have spent the rest of your posts being decidedly not suspicious of him, and trying to shut down any case on him. Literally, you have not voiced any suspicion of BWT at all. But you use the fact that you voted for him as a reason why you aren't his teammate.

Makes me think you voted for him just so you could use it as your defense later on.

So yeah. I think it's possible you're on a team with BWT, and the fact that you voted for him in that lynch doesn't deter me at all.

I have my own case on BWT, which to me is clear cut. Evaluate it if you want. It makes no difference to me, since I'm pretty sure you're on a team with him :P

A link to what?

You keep harping on my usage of those words. I've stated multiple times why I believe BWT to be bad. I don't think I need to elaborate anymore.

I'm allowed to have thoughts and theories and have those thoughts change as the game progresses. You don't have to like or agree with my theories, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid. However, if I end up being right, your attempts to discredit me are going to look very suspicious.

Epignosis wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:And you did not vote for BWT because you thought he was HHH, so it's weird that you say you did.

Epignosis wrote:

S~V~S wrote:he suddenly thought i was up to shenanigans was odd to me. Why me? As opposed to anyone else?

There's a world of difference between what I say and what I think. Remember that.

So.... did you think BWT was the serial killer when you voted for him or didn't you? And if you did, then why did you make me belabor the point with you a few days ago? And if you suspected him of being HHH then, do you still suspect him to be now? And if not, what has happened to change your mind?

Seems to me that you are just flip flopping on the matter when it suits you, just so that you can disagree with me.

Out of the three Indy roles, Steve Austin is the only one who doesn't have a win condition written into his role.

• HHH is the SK and needs to be the last man standing.
• Eddie is a true neutral with some neat tools to survive, and all he needs to do is survive to the end.
• Steve Austin's win condition is not given.

I think he's joined a team and started using his power to help bail his teammates out.

Also, Stone Cold's role contains secrets, obviously. Even if he is the one responsible for silencing/buying time for BWT and CBK, as you have so strongly argued, it's possible that he's joined a team. Your attempts to discredit the cases against BWT and CBK by blaming it on an Indy could be very telling down the road.

And you did not vote for BWT because you thought he was HHH, so it's weird that you say you did. In fact, you were very explicit when you said you only voted for him because hedge did. When bWT started taking actual heat from others,, you questioned why others were voting for him. And then when I tried to explain why he might be HHH, you said you didn't like it because it was circumstantial.

If BWT comes back as a Heel or a Corp member, I'll likely be looking your way next

His responses during the Hedge lynch are still suspicious to me. His lack of enthusiasm for his new role, his lack of defenses, his lack of indignation against the SK theories, his general tone and now his complete absence from trying to play the game with us all seem like indicators, to me, that he's a baddie, who knows he's likely be lynched, and so he can't be bothered to try and make any heartfelt attempt to stay alive.

Short of any actual role outing, this is as clear cut of a suspicion-based case as I can see. A civvie would have played very differently the past few days.

Well I wish I could pin down a role for him to appease you, Epi, but I'm not a psychic turnip. *shrug*

Why would Stone Cold choose those two players? Both were in danger of being the next player lynched right before they were taken off the poll. Does Steve Austin think they were wrongfully accused? and as an indy, why would he care anyways? And why didn't we see this power being used on the first 5 nights in the game?

For the record I'm no longer sold on BWT being the SK although it's still likely that he could be. But I do think he's a baddie who knows he's been caught one way or the other. He gave up trying to defend himself. Even now that he's no longer silenced, he doesn't seem interested in clearing his name.

Does anyone have a good reason to not vote BWT today? I'm also still suspicious of Lizzy based on my interactions with her yesterday, and my suspicion of Devin still lingers, but the case on BWT seems so clear cut.

I also don't believe the silence + poll removal is the doing of an Indy role. It seems like one of the baddie teams has some secrets, probably the Heels. Maybe they got to take over the role of a dead player that they discovered. I see no other reason for BWT and CBK to be silenced, especially since they both were barely even talking. Someone is trying to save them from lynches.

Devin the Omniscient wrote:Yes. DP rarely ever says anything when the game takes off the way it has. So much reading to keep up that it takes away from all of the fun of the game.

What does this even mean? I don't feel that this game has been any more talkative than your standard game, in fact with all the people who are barely playing it's one of the quieter games I've played. Especially since we got rid of MP and his director's cut length posts :P I agree that the reading is the most cumbersome aspect of mafia, but if no one talks then there's nothing to talk about, which means there's no fun to be had. If you don't feel like reading, why play? Plenty of speed games to choose from with less reading required...

It's really not too much to ask for everyone to read the thread and offer their thoughts with a few posts per phase.

Rest in peace Boomslang and Elo. Didn't have vibes for you guys one way or the other, but odds are at least one of you was a civvie.

Is BWT supposed to still be off the poll? I would very much like to have the option of voting for him

Loulou26 wrote:Hold up, no one was lynched? Interesting. Idk if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Could it be someone stopping the lynch because they believe him to be civvie? Or does this mean CBK is bad?

You seem to do this often, you ask seemingly rhetorical questions, about things that are already being discussed by others in in the thread, but without offering your own thoughts on it. What do you think? Do you think someone saved CBK, or do you think she's bad?

I don't see why The Showstopper would stop this lynch. There were other suspects today so if anything I think the Showstopper would have switched it to someone else they felt more comfortable in personally lynching. And the Showstopper stopping the lynch is the only way I can see that CBK would not be aware that she was going to survive the vote. If we assume that didn't happen, and since CBK has said she did not know she would survive, then she's either lying, or a baddie, or both.

CBK also survived Hogan's NK attempt last night, but she didn't seem too surprised to have survived that, either. In fact, she never even addressed it.

I am 100% for lynching CBK again at some point, but we also have a lot of other good options for tomorrow's lynch. I hope that there is more discussion tomorrow than there was today.

Rest in peace no one.

Host: If the Showstopper stopped a lynch, would he be acknowledged in the lynch post?

Lizzy wrote:Here's something I don't get: you have votes from Epi, Elo and Vomps and here you are arguing with me because...?

I don't find their votes for me as suspicious as your post on me. I already talked to Epi about his vote for me. Elo just voted me because Epi did, which she's been doing the whole game. I assume Vomps voted for me because I've been vocal about not liking his style, and he also probably doesn't care what role I am, and he's pointless to argue with.

Lizzy wrote:I made a better case on you than Epi? I thought he was the one who attracted at least one vote for you, not me.

Epi does seem to hold a lot of sway with popular opinion, but I don't think he was trying to get me lynched. I don't have to be suspicious of the people who vote for me. Your post was the one that seemed to be to be bait for other people to latch onto.

Lizzy wrote:When you make posts that are blendy or that go after low posters and you are very well aware those are classic baddie moves, you can't just sit there and think this will either go unnoticed or people will somehow be okay with it.

I didn't say those are classic baddie moves. I said baddies do those things. So do civs. But you were hoping that, when you pointed them out, people would see them in the context of them being baddie moves.

I've been called out before, in this very game, for going after low posters, so I know there's consequences to my actions. That doesn't change the fact that your post on me was manipulative.

And I haven't made blendy posts. You have ignored about 99% of the content of my posts in this game, and lump it all in as being blendy.

Lizzy wrote:I made a point about low posters who were in fact the ones who voted for the only lynched baddie, the high posters have fucked up just as much as the low ones.

When I said that the low posters aren't helping us, I didn't just mean voting record. They may have voted for MP, sure. But AP and Vomps also voted for Hedgeowl and they gave little to no reason for doing so. That's not helpful. Hell, AP only voted for MP because he was saving WOG.

Low posters aren't helping us suss out baddies. Not helpful. They're not giving their suspicious. Not helpful. Some aren't posting at all. Some say they haven't even looked at their roles. So yeah I'd say the low posters aren't helping, and as a result we've lynched a lot of civilians. When I call out the low posters and ask them to participate more, it's because I want them to help me catch baddies. But you are trying to say that makes me a baddie, because baddies try to go after low posters. You made some generalizations about me and my posts and my intentions, and I see that as being very manipulative.

Lizzy wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:

Lizzy wrote:Like I said, had there not been any posts of yours that would suggest your trying to blend in and picking on low posters, I wouldn't have had anything on you. Unfortunately for you, there are and this defense of yours - not very satisfactory and rather evasive except for the parts that you think suit you.

I believe this: if you couldn't find posts that painted me as blendy and picking on low posters (and by the way, neither of these things are inherently baddie moves, just things that people usually get called out on and can be indicitave of baddieness) then you would have had nothing on me. So it's clear that you went through my posts already looking for these things. I don't think a civ operates in that way. A civ would look at the whole picture.

And my defense was evasive? How so? All you called me out on was those two things, and I responded to both. I didn't evade any of your attack on me. I cant really defend against you calling me blendy, but i tried anyway, and i think my posts speak for themselves in proving that i havent been blendy, but im not convinced you actually looked through most of my posts. Which parts of your attack do you think I evaded? Why was my defense not satisfactory?

Do you have an opinion on any other aspects of my gameplay besides being blendy and trying to get low posters to be more active?

Lizzy wrote:Well doh! The idea is to show that you're a potential baddie since you already have 3 (three) votes.

I understand that this was the intention of your post and I even said it. I'm just saying there's no reason for a civ to do it, especially since you didn't even vote for me! You're just trying to give other people reasons to vote for me. You saw that I was getting votes, then you went back and found a few of my posts so that others would have ammunition (like "blendy" or "targeting low posters") to vote for me themselves.

Classic baddie move.

Lizzy. I'm wondering how you managed to go through my posts to find those 4 without feeling compelled to comment on any of my other posts. Clearly you just went through looking for things you could paint negatively: You went for blendy, and for picking on low posters. These are reasons people usually get votes in mafia, so you pointed them out. But I haven't been blendy, and I think I've been well within my right to pick on the low posters this game, because there's so many of them and they're really fucking things up for the civs currently. But it's not like picking on low posters is all I've done in this game.

If you are a civ, you literally have no reason to go through my posts so selectively like that. You would have gone through and seen other things to comment on in my posts, perhaps things that would lead you to think I'm a civ. It is now very clear to me that only a baddie would wish to show my posts in the way that you have.

Are you trying to save CBK by helping to get me lynched? Are you guys teammates?

Lizzy your post on me is so weird. The four posts of mine that you quoted are just the fringes of my gameplay so far and do not highlight any of the contributions that I've made in this game. I would not even call your post on me a "case". You are just taking advantage of the fact that I have votes right now and trying to add some fuel to the fire.

I don't think I've been blendy at all and that accusation is just so absurd that I have to assume you haven't been keeping tabs on my actual behavior this game. I was one of the only people who defended Mongoose when she was getting attacked for dumb reasons. I was one of the few people who was on Hedge's side last lynch. I defended MP because I thought he was civ, something I would never do if I was his teammate.

Nothing blendy about any of my actions so far in this game.

And yes, it was definitely polite of me to welcome Vompatti back to the game. Sorry?

To be honest CBK, it doesn't seem like anyone is interested in really discussing their votes or suspicions in this game. People are afraid to think for themselves. It's really discouraging and has allowed for about half the remaining players to simply fly under the radar by not contributing anything at all. That said...

Captain Bunny Killer wrote:Could you guys please explain why you're voting for me? I only have Epi's blank claim that I'm bad (although, frankly, I didn't care to read , nor did I have time to, all of his disection of my last post)

You're part of the problem. You're like the zillionth person who's asked for the thread to be explained or summarized for them because they can't be arsed to read.

I voted for you because: I didn't like how you voted for me last round because I didn't respond to Daisy's post, when in fact I did respond to it. If you had voted BWT instead, Hedge might not have died. If you really thought (or cared) that Hedge was civ, I think you would have given more thought to your vote. Also, my other suspects are dead or off the poll. Or not participating at all - but good luck getting those people lynched.

linki: Wow, Lizzy, calling me blendy? Really? I've been a lot of things this game, but blendy is not one of them. I'm one of the few people out there who is posting original thoughts. Way to cherry pick my posts for reasons that work for you.