The Syndicate

S~V~S wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Champions will not start until WWE is over or close to it. the date was an approximation. Boos speed game is now in sign ups waiting on that, but yeah, sometimes a break is good

Nope, it's starting on the 11th. I will make sure of that.

Take that up with MP, as i understood it, that starts when the last game is over (which is also when the poll starts, we are up to 13 games, it will be awesome )

If MP doesn't start it, I will. He cannot stop me. He knew I was a loose cannon when he promoted me, so I assume it's what he wants.

S~V~S wrote:Champions will not start until WWE is over or close to it. the date was an approximation. Boos speed game is now in sign ups waiting on that, but yeah, sometimes a break is good

Nope, it's starting on the 11th. I will make sure of that.

If there's one thing I learned from this game, it's not to ally myself with the civs when I have the choice. Civs hate me.

At least I had Mongoose pegged right from the start.

Bullzeye wrote: No, smoking is bad!

FZ. wrote:I'd vote if I could

Buddy, you said a mouthful.

Epignosis wrote:

Mongoose has been lynched. She was Captain Byron Hadley.

FZ. wrote:Dead, ha? I guess I'm done here then. Nice playing with you all

Welcome to the land of the dead, where pity is our tonic and remorse is our bowl of pretzels.

Low blow to kill me on my vacation guys. Voting vomps for self-defense.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

Elohcin wrote:Voting llama b/c of reasons stated earlier.

You voted against me yesterday, for MrThomas, before switching you vote to, again not me, John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt. If the "reasons stated earlier" were so compelling, why didn't you vote for me yesterday? I find your voting behavior very suspicious this game.

Does this mean you find Elo suspicious?

I do now, yeah.

Elohcin wrote:Voting llama b/c of reasons stated earlier.

You voted against me yesterday, for MrThomas, before switching you vote to, again not me, John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt. If the "reasons stated earlier" were so compelling, why didn't you vote for me yesterday? I find your voting behavior very suspicious this game.

Rereading Dom, he never really came out and said he suspected anyone. He only voted in one lynch poll, for JJJS. I can't see anyone thinking him a threat.

S~V~S wrote:Or he mentioned the baddies in his posts, or he said he would reread someone, OR the baddies were setting up someone to look like they killed him.

Both are certainly possibilities.

Mongoose wrote:

thellama73 wrote:A lot of the time I see baddies pick off people who are not super engaged, but not completely silent either. I don't really understand that reasoning, but I've seen it happen a lot. I think Dom fell into that category.

Why do you think that is? Why not pick off someone completely silent? The possibility they may return to the game and inadvertently be pro-baddie in their appeals?

I suspect they go after peple they think are least likely to take lynch votes. MRThomas was lynched because he said nothing. Mister Rearranger (both lynches have been "Mister." Sexist.) got killed for being too blabby. Dom was in no danger of taking lynch votes, so that's probably why they killed him.

A lot of the time I see baddies pick off people who are not super engaged, but not completely silent either. I don't really understand that reasoning, but I've seen it happen a lot. I think Dom fell into that category.

johns2jj wrote:Randomized for now to vote mongoose.

Yay!

A couple of housekeeping items.
1. I am going out of town tomorrow morning for a week, so will only be on here minimally to vote.
2. I have some club soda, handcrafted tonic and half a bottle of gin. I'm in for the night. Let's talk about mafia!

Hm. That's an odd choice. RIP Dom.

Votes Mongoose.

A Person wrote:

johns2jj wrote:

Vompatti wrote:As far as I know Lizzy is a confirmed civvie.

Is it something I have missed? How do you confirm someone as a civilian?

We've confirmed the fact that she's Lizzy, and is therefore good.

What if someone hacked her account and is posting under her name? Worth considering, I think.

Mongoose wrote:

Lizzy wrote:
How about this one q.m.

This video is not available in your country.

If only we didn't live in such a tiny backwater country.

Has anyone else noticed that we have seen no sign of the SK yet? I mean, his role doesn't say that he actually gets NKs, but given his name I think he would. It is odd that after three days he hasn't poked his head out.

Epignosis wrote: There's no such thing as "society."

Amen.

I love that we can just make unsubstantiated and false accusations now. SVS said she was baddie earlier. Lynch her.

S~V~S wrote:I still think you spent more time trying to tell us about Mr T, tbh.

Back that up with quotes then. It isn't true.

FZ. wrote:What's wrong with you people? You lynched a civ again?

Well, I tried to tell them about Mongoose.

Bullzeye wrote:

boo wrote:Well, I am not entirely surprised that he was civ, but I am kind of surprised he had civ BTSC. It does make me think the first-time player BTSC rule applies in this game, so I kind of doubt john now. But maybe Epi accounted for that and Thomas and john had civ BTSC. Bleh, not an easy result anyways.

Are we sending in votes via PM Epi, or is the poll just going up later?

I was wondering about this 'first time btsc' thing because I've never heard it described as a rule before. Do some hosts actually do that? I thought roles were all usually random. Seems like a really obvious way to find and get rid of baddies, as well as a really easy way to put people off mafia after their first game if every host made new players bad all the time. They'd just end up lynched out of the gate.

I've never heard of this either. When I host, I always randomize the roles. To do otherwise seems unfair, like you're giving clues to the players.

Elohcin wrote:

thellama73 wrote:Elohcin, if JJ was my teammate, why would he keep voting for me when it looked like I had a good chance of being lynched? You are falling prey to confirmation bias, bending the evidence to fit your existing theory instead of drawing the logical conclusions from the evidence.

I don't agree. Let's see what others think of my epiphany.

You know who I've really been distancing myself from? Boo. Maybe he is on my team. Why not lynch him?

Elohcin, if JJ was my teammate, why would he keep voting for me when it looked like I had a good chance of being lynched? You are falling prey to confirmation bias, bending the evidence to fit your existing theory instead of drawing the logical conclusions from the evidence.

You people are posting more than one verse. Cheating, in my book!

It's a difficult one, but I choose Wisdom 3:11 (from the Catholic AKA "Real Christian" Bible)

"For whoever despises wisdom and instruction is miserable. Their hope is vain, their labors are unprofitable, and their works are useless."

Seeking wisdom and truth have been among the primary motivators of my life, and I like when the Bible backs me up on that. For me the purpose of life is to discover how to live well.

Elohcin wrote:We're getting close to the end of the day and it looks like Thomas is not going to show up and that he will most definitely being lynched. So...I am going to change my vote to JJ. He hasn't been as active lately and I am curious why. Maybe his baddie teammates are telling him to lay low.

Why would you do this? Why shift your vote at the last minute to where it will make no difference?

Everyone: If vote manipulation ends up seeing me lynched instead of Thomas, mark well what Elohcin has done and ponder why she might have done it.

Addendum: I actually appreciate your post, S~V~S. I understand where you are coming from at least, although I can assure you that you are very, very wrong about me.

MovingPictures07 wrote: As insanely well argued Boo's case is, I just can't ignore MrThomas for today, nor the sincere vibe I have been getting from Llama.

I will admit, however, that it is definitely possible Llama is bad. I'm closer to buying it than I was. BUT I am still not sold.

MP, I can't believe you're buying the nonsense Boo is selling. The bulk of his arguments are not "here's why llama is bad" but rather, "here's why the evidence that makes llama look good might be wrong." Well the evidence that makes Boo look good might be wrong too.

He suspects me because I survived a night kill and he sees no mechanism for a civvie to do that. Just because he doesn't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. Not all game mechanics are public.

He suspects me because I am trying to convince people I am civ. I am doing that because at this point I believe a lynch is more dangerous to me than an NK. The baddies tried that once, and failed. I think they are unlikely to try again for a while. However, I have historically been a magnet for lynch votes (as we see here) so I am trying to prevent that from happening. I think the evidence paints me as more civ than just about anyone else here, as I explained before.

He suspects me because I mentioned some people who I trust and do not trust. You should know I always do this. It is good to stimulate discussion, and I had reasons for every name I threw out. I still think I caught Mongoose in a slip. I still think my initial suspicion of Boo was reasonable, based on his tone. I was flat out asked how I felt about BWT, and I answered that I thought he seemed sincere. That is not the same as trying to vigorously defend him, just giving my opinion in response to a direct question. I think I am seeing your civvie game this time and I said so. Why any of that makes me bad is beyond me. I like to discuss people, which is better than sitting around in silence.

You can argue, as boo has, that these are not great reasons. In general, I agree that they are not great reasons. I have not seen a single person give a great reason for a lynch vote this game so far. Certainly not the people who actually lynched a civ in what appeared to be a very bandwagony way.

I don't know why, but I believe the baddies ear me and want me dead. I fully expect another person who has defended me to be targeted tonight (although to be honest, I kind of hope me saying this out loud will prevent this from happening.)

You've played with me and hosted me in a lot of games now. I think you can tell when I'm being sincere, and as persistent as Boo is being, I don't see anything compelling about his case against me. I'm amazed you do.

linki SVS: I don't know what you mean about pushing for low posters. The only thing I said about MrT is that I was losing patience with his non-participation and the only reason I voted for him was to protect myself. I am not at all covinced that he is bad. I am convinced that Mongoose is bad and that is who I have been pushing. She is not a low poster.

boo wrote: If your mentality is "I need to win this game, or else what's the point?", then sure, playing in a way you don't like because you think it increases your odds of winning makes sense.

But if that's the entire reason you play, go play solitaire. I'm interested in playing for fun. If, using your example, A Person has fun playing the game his way, and you have fun playing a logic-based game, then you should each play your respective games, and the enjoyment out of them that you do. Yes, I'd prefer if he and everyone else who doesn't played a logic based game, because it would increase my overall enjoyment of it, but it's a multiplayer game, and people have the right to play in the way that maximizes their enjoyment, even if you and I don't like, and don't even understand, how they play (and how it could possibly be fun).

Sometimes I enjoy playing a logic based game, but it is a lot of work and when I feel like people aren't willing to listen, it is not worth the effort. I think it would be wise to look at late MR voters (you were 5th, JJJS was 8th, SVS was 9th. Notice a pattern?), because it would be easy for baddies to hide in there. Too bad that discussion has been curtailed in a single-minded witch hunt.

boo wrote: So yes, my facts will eventually beat up vibes. It may take a while, but it will happen.

Oh I know. You're not going to let up until I am dead. I'm resigned to the fact that I'm a dead man walking, because no one else has been willing to discuss anyone other than me. The entire discussion all day has been about me and no one else. What happens after I finally get lynched? The baddies have been able to hide behind the obsession with me and I'm sure they are very happy right now, because when I'm gone you will have zero leads to anyone else.

If I seem less analytical and more vibes based this game, it's because in the past I have gone to great lengths to construct cases and defenses based on logic only to see them completely ignored by less logically minded players. For example, I have pointed out to A Person many, many times that the way he plays almost always flies in the face of game theory and logic, only to be met with shrugs and indifference. The effort is simply not worth the return on investment anymore. No one is going to listen to logical arguments anyway, so why make them?

I have to leave soon. Since every faction appears to be gunning for me, and since there are potentially vote manipulating contraband items floating around, I'm taking no chances and moving my vote to MrThomas. I'll get you tomorrow, Badgoose!

boo wrote: You can argue that I'm not dealing in facts and you are, but even people in your corner are not taking that stance, and I really believe even you don't believe what you're saying. If you want them to stay in your corner, then actually accept the fact that you are wrong about the issue you keep going back to, and defend yourself. Otherwise it's inevitable that they will reach my conclusions, put aside their vibes about you when they are forced to recognize those vibes don't hold up in the face of facts, and then they will lynch you.

Then I guess it's inevitable they will lose and the baddies will win. I've defended myself all I feel like for today. I have no inclination to dance for your amusement. You can take my life, but you can't make me perform.

boo wrote: And that's the difference between us this game. I actually believe what is true, you are trying to believe a lie. Either you aren't doing it as well as you would like, the fact we do things essentially the same way makes it easier for me to spot it, or I'm wrong and this is a game where your boredom or some weird strategy is causing you to fail to follow the strategy you say we share.

Nope, I am not trying to believe a lie. I don't have to this game. I am following the same strategy I always do.

Boo and I have remarkably similar views, it turns out. The main difference is that he tries to play the same game every time, and I try to vary my game, at least a little, every time. This is partly strategy, but mostly boredom.

When I am bad, I can generally force myself to actually forget my alignment and play just like a civvie. That tends to help immensely. As George Costanza once said: "It's not a lie, if you believe it."

YOu talk of facts boo. I say again that the facts of both baddie teams trying to kill off me and my defenders point to me being civvie. No other player can point to those facts in their own defense. You've singled out the person most factually-likely to be civ, so don't pretend you are not bending things or going on vibes.

Elohcin wrote: No, but this is Mafia. Players will read into things too much. They will make up suspicions that aren't really there (like what I see you doing with Mongoose ). Many civs will be lynched in the beginning. It is how it goes. :/ I am one of those players who is often gets lynched early as a civ. It is what it is.

It sounds like you are saying that you don't care whether an innocent civilian gets lynched and intend to make no effort to stop it.

Elohcin wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

Elohcin wrote: There are two baddie teams, are there not? I'm not calling you a baddie of one of those teams, just saying it is possible.

Yes, there are two. One of them tried to kill me and the other killed someone who was defending me.

I know your defense, I read your other post. The killing of Nev could have had nothing to do with you though....could have been coincidence. I am not saying you are a part of the baddie team that did not try to kill you, I am just saying it is a possibility. I will not be voting you today FWIW.

Yeah, it is a possibility. But I can't understand why people are so eager to construct contrived explanations to make the evidence fit their conception of me as a baddie, rather than taking the simplest answer at face value. Of all the players in this game, there is more concrete evidence pointing to me being civ than for anyone else. Does it make sense to go after that guy when there are so many other options?

Elohcin wrote: There are two baddie teams, are there not? I'm not calling you a baddie of one of those teams, just saying it is possible.

Yes, there are two. One of them tried to kill me and the other killed someone who was defending me.

For those of you interested in actual evidence, consider this:
On Night 1, the baddies tried to kill me.
On Night 2, the baddies killed Nevinera, who vocally defended me in the thread on more than one occasion and would certainly not have voted to lynch me.
It would appear that both baddie teams want me out of the picture. Why? Could it be because I am literally the only person pushing Mongoose as a suspect, and if I go she will be able to recede into the safety of the shadows?

In any case, I don't see how any rational person can conclude that the go who both baddie teams wants to kill must also be bad. I'm on your side, civvies, I swear it.

Aso, John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt has been voting for me without explanation from the beginning of the game. Why has no one called him on this?

FZ. wrote: llama, if you were so sure about Mongoose, why'd you stand on the side and let people lynch MR instead of trying to convince them harder that she's the one they should go for?

I've been pushing for Mongoose consistently for a long time. My suspicions have been ignored. I'm not sure what else I could do. You could poiont to a lot of players who made less of an effort to save MR than I did, like those who voted for him for example.

Also, I had no reason to think MR was particularly civ, so I didn't want to go all out trying to save him. I am just going to vote my conscience and my conscience says Mongoose. I don't really understand why Boo thinks identifying suspects and non-suspects is a baddie move. I thought we were all trying to do that.

I guess the civvie move is to make no effort whatsoever to find baddies, like A Person, Lizzy and Vompatti. They are so incredibly helpful to the civvie cause, aren't they?

This is why I keep voting for Mongoose. I am convinced I'm right about it and her actions since have not changed my mind. If you say that's "no discernible reason" than you either haven't read the thread or you are just making a baddie push to see me lynched. It's a rare game where both the civvies and the baddies are trying to kill me at the same time.

thellama73 wrote:

Mongoose wrote:I went to the first page to the roles to see if any items were listed. After re-reading through it, these are my thoughts:

Well if he really used a cigarette (and we believe that), we can guess he's not Shawshank personnel as they cannot receive contraband, per the role list.

You've gone to painstaking lengths to demonstrate that you know this from rereading the role page instead of because you are a member of Shawshank Personnel.

Linki: it wasn't a wish, it was a prediction.

S~V~S wrote:Also, llama, you keep voting for Mongoose. Why exactly? This is strongly reminding me of the distancing tactics you used with teammates in AG and Grimm.

Your repeated votes for her for no discernable reason are a big part of why I suspect you.

I've explained why I think Mongoose is bad a bunch of times, but my explanation has been laughed off or ignored each time.

I'm just frustrated because I think I have been more obviously civ this game than in any other game I've played, so obviously so that the baddies tried to kill me on the first night. Now three people jump right out of the gate and vote for me, having made no case so far as I can see to defend against. I honestly don't know what it takes to not get lynched early around here. Maybe next game I'll just be like Thomas and not say anything. It seems to work, and it's ever so much fun for all involved.

S~V~S wrote:So cheer up and stop being so melodramatic

I'd sooner set myself on fire and plunge into the sea from a hot air balloon.