The Syndicate

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Russtifinko wrote:I'm told I have a pretty hardline stance against info dumps, but this is my philosophy: if it's information you did not get in the thread, it should never show up in the thread, period. So I'm with DH there. Some of the best times I've had in mafia have come from not revealing info, like my showdown with DH in Grimm. I also tried damned hard not to drop info in Zelda. I'm not sure I succeeded entirely, but I definitely enjoyed the game more because I had to put in the extra effort to build cases to convince civs to see it my way.

Actually, the mechanics of the Zelda game surely let you learn some things about other players, and especially that I was civ. And the same mechanics also helped me learn that you were Ganon. No info-dropping required.

They did, actually. In fact I was able to figure out the entire baddie team, but just a hair too late. Which I think was a sign that the balance of the info in the game was handled extremely well.

Thanks for the reminder, I thought I had tried very hard to reveal myself but wasn't sure if I had let something slip.

I promise to only discuss this in terms that will not reveal anything about Donner Party mafia, but I think the explanations experienced players gave the newbies in that game is the first step in the right direction. Of course, that game has been chock-full of info dumps, so it seems clear we still have a long way to go.

Epi, you're right that not all info dumps are outs. And that BWT's move was probably an out (although it wasn't quite that clear-cut; others still needed to do some figuring, but there was only 1 possible reasonable conclusion). My point that players are in some cases going to dump info no matter how well-structured a game is remains, I think.

However, I do think your ideas about solutions and host mindfulness in game construction are extremely helpful. I also think S~V~S is somewhat right that dropping info (and asking others to do so) has become more accepted and commonplace lately. Could we have a discussion on ideas for changing the culture?

Finally, I think it needs to be noted that situation is incredibly important to an info dump. For example, when I hosted the Hobbit, there were multiple info dumps that I felt crossed the line of what was acceptable mafia play. For the most part, I let them slide (partly thanks to S~V~S's excellent guidance). In each case I didn't punish, I decided that the info dropped would not materially affect the game and/or that the player dumping put themselves in considerable danger by dumping.

There was one exception. Toward the end of the game (maybe 5 players left), BWT essentially revealed that he was Bard. Bard was a civvie role with a secret power that if he were targeted for NK by Smaug, the LMS, Smaug would die. Smaug knew Bard was dangerous but not that attempting to kill him would mean her (juliets') death. So BWT essentially made himself unlynchable, and juliets that Night wanted to target him for a kill to try to eliminate a dangerous civvie role. This was an info dump that ONLY increased BWT's chances to win and came with no danger to him. No one would lynch him, Smaug might target him, and no baddie team will waste a kill on a civ they clearly know is dangerous to the LMS and less so to them. His dump would have literally broken the game. So I had to punish him harshly. (I took all his Gold, and if the civs had won I would still wonder to this day whether I should have modkilled him.) juliets tried to target him that Night, and I PMed her back asking "Are you absolutely suuuuure you want to do that?". The way I saw it, that was the least invasive way I could restore balance to the game, and it worked.

Tl;dr- Stupid long story (sorry) to make the points: I'm all for prevention where possible, but every player in a game has some info, even if it's just their role. Hosts can't control what they do entirely, so info dumps WILL happen. When they do, let the punishment fit the crime, and let the crime be judged by the magnitude of its effect on the game and cost to the dumper.

DharmaHelper wrote:I think an important thing to take into account is the concept of prevention vs. punishment. Its all fine and good to have punitive measures in place, but I think a more successful approach would be if hosts developed their games to make it as difficult as possible for infodumping to happen, and as difficult as possible for role outing to occur.

Whether that means writing more secrets into the game to create paranoia and doubt regarding claims, or in-game mechanics that spread misinformation, or whatever the case. I don't think it needs to be a question of "What bad things can we do to infodumpers", but rather find ways to encourage actual effort, and make infodumping and role outing useless or too difficult to warrant.

I know it was recommended to me to do this as a host. It was something I hadn't thought of, but it really helped in avoiding those "host-outs" Epi referred to. Making two (or more) possibilities for everything that could reveal role info to the thread is an important part of balance imo.

Epi, I agree with S~V~S that the phrasing of the two examples you gave before that make it clear a person changed their opinion because of info are out of line. However, I don't think that playing a more or less aggressive style in and of itself is equivalent to info-dumping. It doesn't reveal any information that's not in thread, and a lot of times people are just as likely to be lynched themselves for playing unusual styles as they are to have people listen. It's also impossible to enforce punishment for someone playing a different style. Too subjective to possibly do well.

I'm told I have a pretty hardline stance against info dumps, but this is my philosophy: if it's information you did not get in the thread, it should never show up in the thread, period. So I'm with DH there. Some of the best times I've had in mafia have come from not revealing info, like my showdown with DH in Grimm. I also tried damned hard not to drop info in Zelda. I'm not sure I succeeded entirely, but I definitely enjoyed the game more because I had to put in the extra effort to build cases to convince civs to see it my way.

Any info drop decreases my enjoyment of a game dramatically, no matter which side I am on.

thellama73 wrote:I would add that one thing to keep in mind for hosts is that, if you plan to take action to punish an infodump or an outing, the action itself can contribute to the problem. If player X outs player Y and is modkilled for it, and then Player A outs Player B with no punishment, everyone can conclude that Player A was lying, because a true outing would not have gone unpunished. Player X is confirmed to be telling the truth as well.

I played one game once (I forget which one) where the host announced that fake infodumps would be punished just as severely as real ones for exactly this reason. Just one thing to keep in mind when considering whether to punish or not.

That was the Hobbit. While it didn't completely stop info dumps in that game, I still think the idea I had was solid. Infodumps as well as fake ones were to be punished, AND all punishments involved loss of gold. No one else knew your gold balance at any point, so they could never know if you had or hadn't been punished. Obviously only one of these things (secret punishments or punishing both fake and real dumps) is necessary, but both can be valuable tools.

Dom wrote:In terms of referencing messages sent between players, I remember in the Hobbit, Llama and I communicated with a message, and very subtlety confirmed it in thread. I used a word/phrase he had sent me (or vice versa) to confirm.

I don't think I remember this! What was it?