The Syndicate

Wow, hell of a game everyone! Well done Epi, and Dom.

I also think JJ should be commended for surviving 4 LYNCHES!! (or was it 3? Anyway, a lot of lynches) after being outed by Elo. crazy rookie game.

Really proud of how you stuck with it, Bullz. You were so close! I never thought to check in to BTSC after a couple days, because I couldn't comment on in-game stuff anyway.

Dom, I thought for sure you were civ and BWT was the SK. Epi, how did BWT survive an NK attempt, anyway?

I voted the 2 best kinds of beer. Bye for now, everyone!

And it's ok Lizzy, I'll take being a bad civvie over a good baddie any day.

S~V~S, does this mean you;re sad you survived and we got a baddie? That's....confusing.

Lizzy wrote:

Russtifinko wrote:
And if one of them is lynched and flips bad, when I could've decided it, very much not yay me.

But whatever, if i must die for the capital crime of having voted MR, so be it.

If SVS flips baddie, somewhat yay you, because you took her in account. Nay you if jjjjjj is bad. But on average, yay you!

Lolz.....So Lizzy, about my vote being good for me no matter what....

S~V~S wrote:

Lizzy wrote:

Russtifinko wrote:

Bullzeye wrote:

Mister Rearranger wrote:Russ and Bullz: did you use any cigs today?

No, smoking is bad! If I had some (which I may or may not do) I'd save myself with them.

Linki: Kinda agree with Lizzy there.

I'm not sure we're allowed to discuss this.

And Lizzy: You can say that, but I clearly explained my vote and the reason, and I decided I didn't feel great about the other 2 options I was presented with. I even asked people to switch, though I realize we were short on time by that point. I'd rather make a vote that doesn't decide a lynch outcome than one I can't justify to myself, and if my role guesses are right the lynch was decided without me either way.

Interesting how mad some people are that I didn't join their sides in this vote. I'm starting to wonder if certain people are steering lynches, and if they're mad I didn't blindly follow along.

Ahhhh... perspective. You waited till the last minute to waste a vote. That still stands. If jjjjjjj is lynched and is civ, yay you! If SVS is lynched and is civ, yay you! If it's a tie, yay you! Yay you!

You and i should have gotten past that silly tiff earlier in this game and started talking, not threatening each other. i will never underestimate you again.

This is the civviest thing i have seen this entire game from anyone.

And if one of them is lynched and flips bad, when I could've decided it, very much not yay me.

But whatever, if i must die for the capital crime of having voted MR, so be it.

Bullzeye wrote:

Mister Rearranger wrote:Russ and Bullz: did you use any cigs today?

No, smoking is bad! If I had some (which I may or may not do) I'd save myself with them.

Linki: Kinda agree with Lizzy there.

I'm not sure we're allowed to discuss this.

And Lizzy: You can say that, but I clearly explained my vote and the reason, and I decided I didn't feel great about the other 2 options I was presented with. I even asked people to switch, though I realize we were short on time by that point. I'd rather make a vote that doesn't decide a lynch outcome than one I can't justify to myself, and if my role guesses are right the lynch was decided without me either way.

Interesting how mad some people are that I didn't join their sides in this vote. I'm starting to wonder if certain people are steering lynches, and if they're mad I didn't blindly follow along.

Haha you against the world, huh MR? You seem fairly sure about me now that I've voted you. Funny how that works.

Lizzy wrote:

Russtifinko wrote:Anyone wanna change their votes?

Linki: S~V~S. So you do think boo had info? That's news to me, as is stealing books and the idea that books are actually useful for this stuff.

And as I said, I'm not convinced you;re bad yet, S~V~S. It's just been something in the back of my mind, and we're running low on other candidates. As you can see, though, I didn't vote you.

You know that if she gets lynched and is bad, you're next.

... if not, I am

Who, S~V~S? Oh, because I didn't follow the bloc? Well, fair enough I suppose. She's right, I've been more or less saying she's civ all game. I promise we're not baddie teammates, though.

SUPER DUPER ULTRA MEGA INTENSE MIND-BLOWING LINKI

Anyone wanna change their votes?

Linki: S~V~S. So you do think boo had info? That's news to me, as is stealing books and the idea that books are actually useful for this stuff.

And as I said, I'm not convinced you;re bad yet, S~V~S. It's just been something in the back of my mind, and we're running low on other candidates. As you can see, though, I didn't vote you.

Yeah, I'm going for MR. He's been throwing out wild accusations and using his first life as excuses for them, and now he's voting S~V~S with what looks like a clear plan to vote other S~V~S voters later on.

I'm actually considering MR. He's been acting weird IMO, trying to push peoples' buttons, and now he may be pulling some sort of weird gambit.

I hate to break up our voting bloc, though. I'm just not completely convinced about S~V~S yet, though I admit it's plausible.

S~V~S wrote:I want to get a Sister since getting baddies from both teams benefits all. You have been spending a lot of time being nice to me, Russ, now you are starting to sound ominously like Boo. I think Boo had himself a sister since that was his focus the whole game.

You accusing me doesn't make me feel better about you.... I like to think I'm nice regardless of alignment, though, so thanks for that.

I get what you're saying about boo. He didn't have any more info than the rest of us regarding who the Sisters were, though, and I'm still not sure Elo can be believed.

And MR, does your last post to S~V~S mean you're voting her so that the Sisters will come vote her too and then you'll vote for them? I just didn't understand what you meant. If so, that's a weird gambit, and it would mean you think you're voting a civ, which I advise against this late in the game.

Also, Bullz, don't we have roughly 90 minutes to vote?

Triple super quadruple linki bomb: oh, so you went so far as to vote S~V~S already.

Can we start calling ourselves the Soviet Bloc or something catchy? I'll be Krygyzstan, please.

Linki: Oh hi S~V~S! What are your thoughts on non-JJ people? As I said, I'm not 100% into voting you just yet, but I'm not into voting him either.

Well, I still don't know where to vote until Epi responds to my question and hopefully more discussion is had. Gonna wrap Christmas presents now, but I'll kinda sorta be around if anyone wants to talk.

Linki: Yay, Lizzy! I'm down for a voting bloc. My suspicions depend on whether there's still a third Warden teammate around. If there is, I have a few ideas as to who it could be. If not, I'm a little lost on the Sisters if JJ isn't one (which I still think is a strong possibility).

S~V~S is one I've been thinking about. She's certainly earned a bunch of civ cred by helping us get boo, and she hasn't seemed as overtly concerned with getting Wardens and boo was with Sisters. However, I don't like how hard she's pushing for JJ, and lately I've been wondering if she could be a Sister or even Boggs.

I'm a bit reluctant to vote her just because she's been so valuable, though. Which I guess is just what a baddie would want, but it still makes me hesitate.

Linki: I guess MR might join our bloc too, if we go that way.

Linki again: not if you want to eliminate baddies.

Linki: thanks for the wild accusations, MR. If you must know, I just got back from finishing my post for The Hobbit Mafia over on the drawing board (shameless plug alert: go check it out! And give me feedback and vote for it in the Hosting Poll!) and then I decided to read the thread, think, and write a post. Maybe I'm too slow for you people; FZ accused said the same thing a few days ago.

And who would I be saving, exactly?

Whoa, so now I'm SUUUUUPER confused.

Epi, will you tell us if a team is eliminated?

I was running on the assumption that he would say so, and that thus Haig is still out there, because iirc Epi has given that information in every one of his games I've played. I'm also assuming the kill is gone, which makes Haig less of a priority than Boggs but more so than the other Sisters and the SK. Everyone's voting strategy seem predicated on a different assumption though, which makes me worried this lynch will be far too chaotic.

So MR, if I may ask, does anything make you think Bullz is bad besides that he helped get you lynched the first time? I always enjoy a good revenge vote, but I'd like to understand if there's a case the translates to the rest of us.

I was under the impression that since the kill is tied to a role instead of being a team thing that that kill just goes away now that Mongoose is dead, but that's just my best guess.

Well I'm all in a kerfuffle. It looks to me as if JJ is probably going down today, but I'd be interested in looking elsewhere if anyone seems inclined to. Even if Elo was right, taking down the Sisters isn't nearly as important as getting rid of Boggs.

Going on a shopping trip, then I'll be back and think about who to vote for.

Hahaha. A well-deserved party smiley, llama. After the game I'll be very interested to see whether and how you knew.

YES! What a great result! One NK down. Very glad we could organize a successful lynch.

Voted no on the death penalty. It costs the state roughly 3x as much as seeking a life sentence, is enforced arbitrarily and in a racist manner based on the color of the victim, and cannot be reversed if evidence of innocence is found after a conviction.

A Person wrote:THE END IS NIGH

A Person wrote:Dear Serial Killer, if you are listening then please prove it by killing SVS at the next available time.

Alright, Goosey it is. I hope we're right about you.

Haha and I'm flattered that you're suspicious of me, Liz.

Hahahaha. Right. Stupid me.

Dom wrote:

FZ. wrote: And how is Dom back?
I would say Russ, Lizzie and jj being the sisters would be too obvious, but with how you people play the game, I don't know anymore.

How the hell did we not lynch you?

Well, I'm gonna vote tonight, and without more discussion, it's gonna be for JJ.

Dom, thanks for bringing this up.

FZ, I know you were bothered that I brought up you sounding frustrated about NKs not going through. I honestly did not realize that was a joke. It was buried in the middle of a normal post, and as I'm sure you know, tone is hard to convey in mafia.

This, to me anyway, reads as you being frustrated Dom is back. I think he's been super helpful so far this game, and so I don't understand why anyone would be anything other than happy about it.

I'd be down for an FZ vote if others seem inclined to join me.

Lizzy wrote:There are 2 (two) roles with secrets in this game - a civ and a cereal killer, and the latter would make more sense to survive a NK attempt. Now then now then, I would, again, advise you to NOT go after the SK because he's NOT the one killing people at night; not when there are baddie candidates roaming freely in the thread. There's enough time to get him later. Bringing up a non-active player is your average baddie leitmotif so I'll be keeping an eye on those so bring that forth. Also, please don't vote for jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj. Today I'll have the usual: SVS or Mongoose.

Thanks for this post, Liz. You make some really good points. I will say I think we should get the SK sometime soon, but I agree it's not top priority.

I'd love for us to be able to form a voting bloc, because I don't think JJ should be lynched, as I said. However, I am not on board with lynching S~V~S. I think it's a bad idea. I don't feel super amazing about voting Mongoose, but I'm less against it than an S~V~S vote.

I will also submit that I still think BWT bears considering for today's lynch. I feel fairly good about S~V~S and I'm not convinced about JJSJSJJSJSSJJJSJS, but BWT survived an NK, and the way I see it there are only 2 possible ways that could have happened. He also is actively refusing to participate, whereas S~V~S nabbed us our first baddie.

I'll likely look his way today. I would love to at least talk about him with some people, even if you won't vote him, just to make sure I'm not in la-la land with this.

FZ. wrote:Dead, ha? I guess I'm done here then. Nice playing with you all

You too, FZ!

Sorsha, I recently listed Bullz among a number of players who haven't contributed a great deal. He argued the point, and after I read back I decided it was unfair of me to say. Not sure if there was another case on him before that.

S~V~S wrote: But then this is pretty SOP for me, I always take more flak when I am a civil because I say more crap since I don't have a filter, and because no one is relying on me.

I might actually vote for someone else next time depending on what happens overnight. There was a huge overt case of target painting further up there that totally flabbergasted me, I actually gasped out loud when I read it.

This made me laugh, after seeing how much flak you do tend to take in games I've played with you. Interested to hear more about that target painting tomorrow.

Bullz, on my readthrough, you actually have said some fairly useful stuff. My mistake, I'll not consider you a low participant any more.

So BWT and JJ, while you guys have both posted recently...What are your thoughts on...anything?

You could coment on things that have happened to you this game, pick a random (or nonrandom) player and give your opinion on them, comment on FZ's post about S~V~S and Lizzie...

I'd just love to hear from either of you in more than on line at a time about what's going on. We can use all the help we can get.

Bullzeye wrote:Crap, sorry I missed the vote. My friends showed up earlier than expected and I didn't get chance to come on.

Russtifinko wrote: The non-participants have been worrying me more lately. I still don't feel good about MP (now MR) or Bullz, Sorsha had me worried from the time she replaced in and hasn't yet offered anything useful imo, BWT is absentee, and A Person has said nothing I can remember for days. I know they can't all be bad, but some of them have to be, and I'm choosing A Person as a proxy and using my vote to say that these players are on my radar next.

I have issues with you calling me a non-participant when I've posted more than you this game and am actively trying to be around as much as I can, as opposed to someone who just isn't bothering to post or be around at all.

FZ. wrote: I find it weird that none of you know if it's the sort of thing Ello would do or not. If she's ever done that before.

It's not the sort of thing most people would do, and I'd have included Elo in that. Infodumping is generally frowned upon and considered unfair.

I've had this argument plenty of times before. Yes, you have a higher number of posts than me. Mine tend to be huge this game, (too huge, actually), and yours tend to be fairly short. I was arguing quality, not quantity, because I can remember very little that you've said this game. I acknowledge that may be an error on my part, though, so I'll go reread you.

I second what Bullz is saying about Elo, FZ. I would not have expected her to infodump, nor to fake an infodump if she were bad. That's part of why the whole thing is so bamboozling.

FZ. wrote:I'm sorry. I fell asleep on my lap top . I can't believe I didn't vote. I was planning on voting jj, but now I'm kind of glad I didn't, because Russ' words made me feel bad about it. Russ, if you're jj's sister, you're going down But OK. So how do you suggest we deal with jj? Like I said, everything is tainted now. Does the fact he wanted to be lynched mean nothing to you? Would you not expect a civ to tell us they are not a sister?

So again, no lynch? This is happening too much. No night kills, no lynches going through. What's the point in playing, LOL. This never happens so much where I play.

As for the reasons for the vote not going through, whoever said it was a tie, that would still mean a lynch, just randomized. Unless you meant that the other person could survive a lynch. I need to check who that was.
I doubt only civs could survive a lynch, because that would make it too obvious to figure out they are civs.
I can see it as sort of a punishment if what Ello did was real.
I find it weird that none of you know if it's the sort of thing Ello would do or not. If she's ever done that before.

Now to the other players. What do people think aboutLizzie? She seems to be very, and I mean very sure about jj. She's also very suspicious of SVS. There's an interesting thing going between them. Lizzie is suspicious of SVS and sure jj is a civ. SVS is sure jj is a baddie and is not disturbed at all by the fact Lizzie thinks he's a civ or by the fact she thinks she's bad. If it was just the latter, I'd understand, but the combination of the two is just really strange to me. I was getting civ vibes from SVS lately, but this is too strange.
What do you think about that?

And how is Dom back?
I would say Russ, Lizzie and jj being the sisters would be too obvious, but with how you people play the game, I don't know anymore.

Welcome back, Dom! I'll be glad to hear from you, I was enjoying having you around earlier in the game.

I've stated my reasons for not voting JJ, over and over at this point. I've also stated that no one has made a thread-based case on him, and that if and only if that happens I will be willing to consider voting him. Anything else isn't playing the game right. If that makes you think I'm bad, so be it.

Like Lizzie said, I've seen civs self-vote out of frustration TONS of times on this site. I've never ever seen a baddie do it, because they feel responsible to their teammates. As for the fact that he hasn't said Elo was lying, I honestly don't know. It is his first game ever, so he almost certainly doesn't know that's protocol. And if he did say so, what difference does it make? Denying something has no effect on its truth at all, logically speaking. So no, neither of the facts you mentioned change my opinion of him, or of what we should do. You want to suspect me for it, be my guest.

You're making an assumption based on games you've played before that doesn't apply here, FZ. Epi handles lynches in such a way that ties are no lynch, not a randomized one. That's unusual, I know, but it's how he plays it. As for there being no NKs, wtf?? Any civ should be glad when an NK doesn't go through, because it can only help us. And I think only one has been survived anyway, so if you are a frustrated baddie, you'll have plenty more chances.

Also, has anyone been thinking about how BWT survived the NK last night? Don't get me wrong, I'm usually glad for these things, but looking at the rules it has me a bit concerned. Love to hear if anyone shares that. Switching my vote to him, for now. I still hope it will serve the same purpose.

And by the way, I meant to say above that I know BWT has been sick, and obviously I don't expect as much participation from him in that case. I do hope he feels better soon. I just wanted to note that he's one of many unfortunately uninvolved players this game, some of whom I acknowledge have very good reasons. Doesn't necessarily change my thoughts on his potential roles.

Linki: thanks. I'd try, but I doubt I can pull it off by myself

Voted A Person.

As I stated, I disagree with lynching JJJJSJSSJSJSSJSJSJS for many, many reasons, both moral and practical, and on an in-game and meta-game level. I'm a little ashamed everyone is going along with this.

That said, I also think S~V~S has seemed good so far. At the very least she's no Warden-team-member, and I personally doubt she's a sister either. It's unusual for me to get civ vibes from S~V~S, so I think voting her would be just as big a mistake.

The non-participants have been worrying me more lately. I still don't feel good about MP (now MR) or Bullz, Sorsha had me worried from the time she replaced in and hasn't yet offered anything useful imo, BWT is absentee, and A Person has said nothing I can remember for days. I know they can't all be bad, but some of them have to be, and I'm choosing A Person as a proxy and using my vote to say that these players are on my radar next.

Epi, is reywaS supposed to be on the poll? He got replaced by Sorsha, right?

Quote fail. The white bit is supposed to be my reply to the purple bit, which I quoted from you.

FZ. wrote: I get it, but I also think that now, going to build a case on jj would be firstly based on the assumption that he is a baddie. The idea that he's a baddie is forever ingrained in our minds and anything said and done about him from now on will be colored accordingly.

I get that. I'm saying it still isn't fair to him, especially as a new player, to lynch him based only on that. I also think it undermines the integrity of this game and future games, when people decide that info dropping basically is both unpunished and useful. Obviously we have a very utilitarian group here, because few people seem to agree with me.

I also don't understand the unwavering trust in Elo. Obviously it looks pretty bad for JJJS right now, but we have nothing approaching proof.

FZ. wrote:First of all, every one but me is still suspicious to me But seriously, I'm not saying everyone is suspicious. I specifically said one of the last 4 voting for Boo, because I imagine them trying to wait to see if it could go to someone else. I could also extend it to a few of the other players if any of you could tell me how they go about when they are baddies. For example, I can tell you that if I think someone with the power to check roles is on to my buddy, I'd be the second to vote for him/her to save myself realizing they are going down. But again, this is about styles and I don't know any of yours, so I was asking for your help.

I actually wish someone had as good an idea about people's styles as you're implying you want, here. I've been playing for about 9 months now and have nothing approaching a read that solid on anyone, much less everyone. It seems S~V~S did on boo, and that got us a baddie, so I'd love to hear if others do.

FZ. wrote:I need to go to sleep.
I don't get people saying they won't vote for jj because of Elo using that kind of evidence. It's not like we'll be able to forget it. It's in our minds. But since I can't stay and discuss it, I'm willing to talk about him and it next day (if I'm alive).

Wanted to address this. I didn't say or mean that I would not be voting JJJS because Elo used that evidence, just that I would not vote JJJSJJJS based ONLY on that evidence. Whether he's bad or not, no one has at any point built any type of compelling, thread-based case on him at all. When that happens, I'll certainly be willing to vote him, but until then no way. It's unfair to him because it's indefensible, and it's a shitty way to end your first game. It also undermines the integrity of the game, in my opinion. So until someone builds a coherent, thread-based case, I won't vote JJ, and I hope other respect the game enough not to either.

FZ. wrote:Also, I went to see who didn't vote for Boo other than me and Mongoose who couldn't vote, and found that all those who voted, voted for him. Interesting, isn't it.

These are the people that did vote for him:
S~V~S (2), johns2jj (4), Russtifinko (6), Lizzy (7), A Person (9), Sorsha (10), MovingPictures07 (11), Bullzeye (12)

I would imagine that if there are two baddies with him, at least one, if not two are on this list. One is probably from the last four. I wonder if there is one that already saw him going down and decided to vote early. I did it plenty of times. I doubt it though, because it was between him and jj, so I'd say they would wait and see. Still, since we could change votes, I can also see them voting early thinking if they had the chance, they'd change. All said, I still think there's a higher chance his teammates are from later on. Also, one possibly being a no voter, if we even had one. The other could be Mongoose.

As for the sisters, they would probably be voting for Boo in an instant, putting their trust in SVS, hence jj's vote, and I imagine the other is one of them as well, or again, Mongoose.

FZ I don't know what we're supposed to make of this analysis. Everyone who voted boo is likely to be bad, because they all have some strategic reason for voting him at the time they did? And Mongoose is bad too. So that leaves everyone but you being bad, except possibly non-voters, who could still be bad.

I don't mean for that last paragraph to sound insulting. I'm just trying to ask what we can make of your anaylsis. It has a lot of words, but I haven't been able to discern any meaning from it that helps me think about the game. Who are your top suspects right now? JJJJJS and Mongoose, I think. Anyone else?

I should also admit at this point that I don't totally get the case against the 'Goose. I know FZ and S~V~S have discussed it a lot, but it seems very circumstantial and, to me at least, still based on lingering doubts from worries about llama that turned out to be false (or at least half-wrong, anyway).

FZ. wrote: By they way, how does it work here, do the shawshank staff get to kill after we lynched the person in charge of the killing? Do we get one night off, or maybe nothing.

FZ, usually at TS, if an individual has the kill power, their team loses the kill if they die. We should ask Epi though, as it's really up to him. But for now it's a non-issue, right? I mean, the Warden doesn't control the kill according to the role list.

For tomorrow, I'd like to take a look in some new places, personally. MP and Bullz, you guys have both been uncharacteristically distant. I know in MP's case that's likely to be even more the case from now on, which is a shame. But even the past few days you've been in Wall of Text mode, as someone called it, in the other game. You didn't even show up here until someone posted that, and then you made a few posts and haven't been up to your usual involved self, in my opinion. And Bullz, you also said you've been focusing more on the other game and haven't given this one attention. It's late enough now that we need all hands on deck, and I'd love to hear from both of you. I'll probably even consider voting one of you.

And Sorsha, I know you just replaced in recently, but what are your thoughts on the things going on? What do you think of S~V~S, or Mongoose, for example?

PS-Very sorry for the mega=post, again. I've been getting one time a day to mafia, so I have to post ALL my thoughts right then. I know it's a bit much, thanks if you read this.

Linki-hahaha now you know why, FZ.

FZ. wrote:Hmm, so Ello came in and said she had info on JJ. SVS said she read a book. Isn't that sort of saying you got info as well? Judging by the info I got, you could barely get anything from the latter, so how did that help her learn something about BWT or Ello?


And in a way, it makes sense that if Ello broke the rules, the only way to modkill her and not make it obvious that her info is real is if he made it look like she died from Hadely. But if that's what happened, what happened to the real Hadely kill? It would make the baddies know more than us, and it seems unfair. So bottom line is, I think it probably was a real kill. I also see a possibility where the staff killed Ello, to make us believe she was right about jj. But they couldn't have known, right? So maybe they just did it to keep her out of their business.

Now, Boo's reply to SVS pinged me. Although I'm suspicious of SVS, it made me think she is right about Boo. It doesn't clear her though. They can be on opposing teams. And Mongoose analysis of Lizzie, seemed a bit too easy for me.

I also do not understand how book info would be helping S~V~S to the degree she is implying it is, based on what I got.

I agree with you that the kill was likely a real one and also likely coincidence.

I haven't even thought much about Mongoose and Lizzy, with the other stuff going on. I haven't seen much weird from Lizzy, except maybe that she's slightly more serious than usual. I don't think the stuff Mongoose brought up is particularly convincing.

I wonder, though, if bringing her up was a baddie play, why make it now? There are plenty of candidates up for consideration, and not all of them can be bad. If Mongoose were picking on an easily-lynched Lizzy, now doesn't seem the time, when she could just subtly steer the lynch toward non-teammates who are already in the public eye.

FZ. wrote:Russ You wrote in your post regarding the Fat Ass issue that it was a matter of how we are going to view it, which basically pulled the carpet under your SVS suspicion. Why did you still vote for her?

I don't think what I wrote there pulled the carpet from under my S~V~S suspicion (obviously, given my vote). I do still acknowledge that her voting behavior so far is consistent with one pattern we could expect from a cautious Hadley. I felt that the other cases being made at the time were relatively weak, so she still seemed the best option. After the events of last night and the discussion today, however, I'm less sure.

S~V~S wrote:Why do you believe that? People are saying things like this with zero backing it up.

We don't know this for a fact, and the fact that Boo & you are talking as if it were true worries me. TBH, I think boo is as bad as they come. He is saying he thinks it is OK to vote for someone for a shitty reason, and i just was floored by that. I can just imagine how boo would blast anyone who said such a thing were he civ. So it is my opinion that he is not a civ. And the insistence that JJ is a sister makes me think boo is staff.

I do think the boo-Elo conversation before her death was interesting. Boo's theory was basically a meta-theory that Epi did not randomly assign roles, and Elo never built a case of any sort. I still haven't seen any evidence for or against JJJS being civ or bad of any type, besides Elo's supposed info drop. If she did have info, then I can't in good conscience act on that alone without any other evidence, and I'm not even sure I believe that she did. So I will not be voting JJJS today or at any point until I see some actual evidence of evil, and I urge others not to as well.

I was really surprised by this quote from S~V~S. I hadn't thought before about bo's post like that. But what I got from the post (and perhaps this was an error of interpretation on my part) was: "Elo, I suspect JJJS for non-thread related reasons. You suspect him for different non-thread related reasons that I don't necessarily understand or support. However, we both think he is bad and therefore he must be."

Again, boo, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth. That was simply the impression I personally got from what you posted.

I also don't claim intimate knowledge of Boo's game like S~V~S does, but I do know that in every game I have played with boo (2 or 3, counting this one) he's been super analytical and hasn't hesitated to call someone out when they say something unsubstantiated or contradictory. I think that's mostly been the case this game except for that one discussion, and it makes me wonder why the campaign against JJJS.

S~V~S wrote: I am going to reread him and see where he changed. Like I said last night, John could be bad, I can't imagine why Elo would say such a thing if it were not true, although it is also a good point that she has not been modkilled or publicly punished. So But I am begging you to take me seriously; I feel very, very strongly about this. I have time to reread and post today, and I plan on doing so.

As S~V~S mentions, Elo was not publicly punished. It could be that she did not actually info dump, or that she happened to be killed anyway, at which point I don't know what else Epi could reasonably have done.

I will add that in my experience, The Syndicate has a TERRIBLE record of lynching new players or players whose behavior they do not understand as civs. Maybe I'm seeing conspiracies, but I don't think it's a coincidence Elo and boo went after JJJS. Boo says he's always an easy lynch candidate, and maybe that's true, but I think JJJS is an even easier one.

I have 2 guesses. Either they are/were Sisters and set up JJJS for an easy kill, thinking they could use tonight's NK to silence anyone who might call them out on the lynch, or Elo, JJJS, and boo are all Sisters. Boggs is really the only role there with any power, and it would be a brilliant baddie play to get the other two killed and give him mad cred for helping find both. If they had Elo lead a lynch on a fellow Sister, either JJJS would be lynched and Elo and boo would look good, or, worst case, Elo would be and boo could throw her under the bus to save face. Either way boo looks good, and if he really thinks he's an easy lynch candidate that could offer him some protection from that and from NKs, because the other baddie team would be trying to get Boggs and not him. I think the NK messed with their plans.

In either scenario, I think it's a very safe bet that Elo was expendable and that boo is Boggs and needs to go. JJJS may or may not be with them.

Sorry for the mega-post. This whole thing really got my wheels spinning.

voting boo

Linki: Lizzy and Mongoose, glad I'm not the only one thinking Elo may have been lying. I'm not yet sure what this says about S~V~S, except that I would now be SHOCKED if she were a sister. I suppose she could be Boggs, Elo and boo Sisters, and JJJS innocent, but that would just be insanely convoluted, and if they pulled that off I wouldn't even mind losing to them because it's so complex and fiendishly brilliant. So S~V~S could be on the Warden team, but I think she's in the right on this point.

Mongoose, what do you mean by LP vote? You lost me there.

Mongoose wrote:

FZ. wrote:

Mongoose wrote:Voted JJJJ before I forget. Not really buying the case on Rey yet.

Mongoose, knowing what llama was, why do you think he kept voting for you?

That's a good question. Maybe he was afraid I would figure out who he was and latched on to something insignificant I said/did in order to paint me as a monster.

But why would he fear you figuring it out? If he was indy, he had no reason to believe you in particular would want him dead, right? I feel like I'm missing something here.

FZ. wrote:

Russtifinko wrote: FZ, I wanted to ask you about this thought, but I think I figured it out. If S~V~S were Hadley, you're saying she basically wouldn't be searching for Fat Ass, right? Because then we'd know she's Hadley and lynch her. So by voting with the majority, she's minimizing the chance she's found if Fat Ass does end up being the role lynched?

It's a fairly strong point, I think, and it means Fat Ass's role is more powrful than I realized. I'll consider voting her today too.

One question: would Hadley vote with the majority all the time? That seems nearly as sure to eventually give him away as voting Fat Ass by mistake. If I were him, I'd be tempted to vote a teammate once or twice just to not be found out. Just curious what you think.

I actually meant the opposite, lol. But your reasoning sounds much better than mine. The big difference is, if Hadely is actually trying to get Fat Ass dead, he would vote where he sees other people voting so catching him would be a lot harder, but try to vote a different person each day. On the other hand, if he's trying to avoid voting for Fat Ass, he might try to vote the same person more than once, because he knows it's safe. So that would mean we look for an entirely different pattern of voting

You could be right about this. I guess it all depends what we assume Hadley is going for. Obviously he wants Fat Ass dead, but not at the risk of his own life. So if he's risk-takey, he'd vote a different person all the time, but one who was getting some votes anyway. Ideally one who wasn't going to be lynched anyway, though, as that would be pointless.

If he DIDN'T want to find Fat Ass, he'd vote the same person multiple times, vote teammates, self-vote, or vote people who would be lynched anyway to not be found.

Unfortunately, there are enough possible behaviors that I don't think finding Hadley via vote patterns will be particularly fruitful yet, at least for me. I am happy to bandy ideas about if someone else does the legwork of vote analysis, though.

I don't see myself voting either Lizzy or boo today. Lizzy's SK post was weird, but I don't think it makes her the SK by any means. May vote MP, but I'll wait until later on and see if I hear anything from him.

FZ. wrote:

S~V~S wrote:

FZ. wrote:Every vote SVS made was when people were already on the lynch. She voted for Lizzie when there was already votes on her, she voted for MR, and for MT. All had votes but were not sure to get lynched when she placed the vote.

Whats bad about that?

I don't like being first, and i don;t like being last, and I am at work during the most active hours in this thread, the polls end when i am in work or commuting home.

this is an exceedingly tenuous stretch

Why are you ignoring all that preceded this thought. It's not about the order of your vote, it's about the fact that the way you voted fits someone who would want to search for Fat Ass, but without taking any unnecessary risks.

FZ, I wanted to ask you about this thought, but I think I figured it out. If S~V~S were Hadley, you're saying she basically wouldn't be searching for Fat Ass, right? Because then we'd know she's Hadley and lynch her. So by voting with the majority, she's minimizing the chance she's found if Fat Ass does end up being the role lynched?

It's a fairly strong point, I think, and it means Fat Ass's role is more powrful than I realized. I'll consider voting her today too.

One question: would Hadley vote with the majority all the time? That seems nearly as sure to eventually give him away as voting Fat Ass by mistake. If I were him, I'd be tempted to vote a teammate once or twice just to not be found out. Just curious what you think.

I don't think I agree with boo's case on rey. As boo mentioned, rey did post as late as Day 2, which, if Blatch works like most SKs do, means he could've at least tried to kill Night 1 and didn't.

One other interesting thing I noticed was that every faction except Blatch has win conditions listed on page 1. Epi, is that because you thought it would be obvious that as an SK he can only win as last man standing, or does it mean his win conditions are secret?

FZ. wrote:Wow, Vomp is dead in both games...not cool.
I can't stay today and I won't be here before deadline. I'm going with SVS for reasons I've stated before. Go and look for them if you want.
I'm a little worried with MP not being here at all lately.

I had to recheck the player list when I saw this post. I didn't even realize MP was playing. I know he's been busy, but he's started posting a fair bit in WWE. I can't remember a single thing he's said here, which is uncharacteristic for MP. I'm not sure what it means yet, but I hope he comes back and talks.

My time settings say something about UTC. I tried to look it up, and I think it means the poll ends after midnight my time, which means a bedtime vote.

NOTE TO EPI: I don't want to miss the poll, but am not 100% certain about the time stuff. In case I do not click a vote button by the deadline, I hereby request that my vote be for Vomps.

I don't have the heart to vote Mongoose yet, and I'm a little suspicious of llama but I've helped lynch him wrongly a lot lately, so I'm not confident my suspicions are warranted. I mafia'ed a bunch the past couple hours and got tired, so I don't feel like considering people besides those 3. I'll vote later though, to allow for the possibility of my mind being changed or of getting more energy.

Epignosis wrote:

Russtifinko wrote:Oh dang! Does this poll really end in 2 hours???

You're traveling, are you not? Check your time zone settings.

I am indeed. Thanks!

FZ. wrote:How is it, that when I press the "view votes" button, I see 0 votes?

See Epi's post above.

Oh dang! Does this poll really end in 2 hours???