The Syndicate

pyxxy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:09 pm .......what's RT mean.......

Reaction test.

pyxxy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:09 pm
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:04 pm I have a hunch that after this game that I should probably stop making PR reads as town, tbh.
.......I disagree.......I think if you make a confident PR read.......and play it like Zenon did.......and then draw the nk instead of our cop.......that's gr8 townie play!.......

My cop read on Tutu was shit and my doc read on Roxy is extremely likely to be wrong as well.

I can normally PR hunt better as a wolf as in a recent game I sniped the doctor n1.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:05 pm Pro mafia tip. Gradually swap all your scumreads at F5 so you can honestly say “I had the solve.”

If you're the last wolf then I am the greatest mafia player in the world and Alison, Pyxxy, and Roxy are dwarfs to my greatness and I only bowed down to peer pressure.

If Roxy is the last wolf then I am the greatest mafia player in the world as my tunnel was a RT that I didn't believe in and Roxy coasting failed my RT and outed her.

I have a hunch that after this game that I should probably stop making PR reads as town, tbh.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:53 pm Kinda thinking Jack/Alison/Pyxxy is at “one in Roxy/Camilla” and Roxy is at “one in Camilla/Alison” and Camilla is at “one in Jack/Roxy.”

Which like…is really good if there’s a wolf in Camilla/Roxy and really bad if there’s not.

I really doubt Alison is a wolf and I also doubt that she'd be misreading Pyxxy this badly, tbh.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:45 pm
pyxxy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:44 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:43 pm and its fine if shes the doc because then we just get auto in cam/jack i think
.......you're saying.......that you're counting.......on roxy claiming before EOD?.......
oh shit

I did assume she would at least show up for eod

if she afks eod and is the doc then tomorrow will be a hellhole

We could technically all out as not doctor and if everyone does so then she'd be confirmed but if she's VT then this would be strongly -EV.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:43 pm and its fine if shes the doc because then we just get auto in cam/jack i think

This is frankly why I was talking about why the doctor should out at the SoD. Game's basically on auto if she is.

pyxxy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:34 pm .......if it's not clear.......I am late to work.......and re-reading Camilla's entire ISO.......got to D4.......

.......there is a significant lack.......of forming a town core.......

.......I would need to think.......if that's a problem.......in this specific game.......or scummy behavior.......

Eh?

I had Zenon/Tutu/Alison as my primary towncore with Scotty/Roxy behind it.

I've been fairly vocal about this throughout the game.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:30 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:24 pm Is it bad that Roxy is my gth guess for the wolf and the doctor?
it is kinda shit because if she is doc and claims to avoid death then we just exposed the doc and are back to square 1

If she is the doc then I feel like the game's basically just as simple as Jack.

Like, we have 1 ML. Roxy would be mech cleared, you're basically cleared off the sheer amount of pelts have. So overwhelming amount of times we just win.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:21 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:21 pm if roxy is wolf then from her pov i am doc

pyxxy didnt claim doc when asked at eod1, cam and jack are obviously not doc (not gonna keep up the pretense that jack could be atp)

so i am the worst person to shade today for w roxy as she has to immediately kill me, make herself look dumb + cant exe the person shes been shading
i mean maybe roxy doesnt think like this though. but its worth considering

With how much Roxy has been paying attention in the match I don't think that she'd factor this since she basically started shading you right after you strongarmed the lynch onto the wolf rb'er, tbh.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:16 pm
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:00 pm I've already said that the bulk of my case on Jack boils down to his treatment of Wilgy's slot where there was a drastic pivot the moment that it was clear that Wilgy would always go over which feels unnatural as fuck.

I was slightly suspicious of J dipping but that's not why I want Jack dead today.
But this didn’t actually happen.

You keep saying I had a strong townread on Wilgy and then I suddenly had him lock mafia after he was dead in the water.

But that’s not what happened. I had a slight townread on Wilgy based on shit I kept to myself. I made no real argument that Wilgy was town. I spent no time defending Wilgy against pressure or doing anything to try to yeet alternatives to him or make anyone townread him or ignore him. I saw his posts D4 and I thought they didn’t make sense. And then I asked him about those posts and his answers didn’t really address my concerns. I then started coming up with townreads on Wilgy alternatives like Roxy, Scotty and Pyxxy. I then looked at Wilgy’s entire iso again based off the idea that Porscha was a wolf and that Scotty/Pyxxy were both town and found that Wilgy looked really bad based on that. His Porscha interaction barely existed. He was obsessed with Pyxxy. Yet his reasoning for seeing wolf Pyxxy or exactly one wolf in Pyxxy/Scotty didn’t really exist. When asked straight up for that reasoning, he changed his stated opinion instead of providing the reasoning I asked him for. Then, I looked at the entire poe and said that the most likely team in it was Wilgy/Camilla. I looked for any worlds where Wilgy could be town and came up empty on wolfteams without Wilgy. Then I voted for Wilgy.

You keep framing this as an opportunistic flip from strong townread to strong wolfread based on knowing Wilgy would die. And that’s totally a wolfy thing. Flipping a strong townread to a strong wolfread without providing any reasoning is wolfy. But like…I didn’t do that. You gotta see that I didn’t do that.

I mean, you were tying him to me before he even flipped and I am a fairly OMGUS-y person.

I don't do this sort of pre-flippy shit and I will wolfread anyone who makes it into a habit, so w/e.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:04 pm
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:01 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:57 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:56 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:53 am @Camilla hypothetical: we exe jack, he flips town

Your next move is?
Re-eval the shit out of Pyxxy/Roxy as in this world then it's someone in that pairing as I have you basically nigh-IC at this point.

Most likely Roxy as she doesn't really have the same levels of non-W/W interactions as Pyxxy does and a lot of the things I'm TR'ing her for such as the needless suspicion on you and her town entitlement isn't impossible to fake.
Could you do those things now? Just for fun?
Right, then why would W!Roxy shade Alison rn when she could just coast on this thunderdome if she's a wolf?
Can you please stop answering my questions and requests with challenges?

I don’t know who the wolf is. If I knew who the wolf is, I wouldn’t bother asking you to evaluate other players.

I’m not asking you to vote X instead of me. I’m asking you to keep trying to find the wolf.

If you're V then it's just Roxy, I guess.

Her play today kind of fits the endgame solowolf to a T where she doesn't really seem to care about this stupid dome and just shaded Alison then bailed unlike Pyxxy/Alison who seem to be genuinely upset at how the days has been going on, tbh.

My reasoning to townread her was that suspicion on Alison felt pointless but she never really follows up to it and it feels somewhat performative with that in mind.

[VOTE: Roxy] aubergine

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:57 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:56 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:53 am @Camilla hypothetical: we exe jack, he flips town

Your next move is?
Re-eval the shit out of Pyxxy/Roxy as in this world then it's someone in that pairing as I have you basically nigh-IC at this point.

Most likely Roxy as she doesn't really have the same levels of non-W/W interactions as Pyxxy does and a lot of the things I'm TR'ing her for such as the needless suspicion on you and her town entitlement isn't impossible to fake.
Could you do those things now? Just for fun?

Right, then why would W!Roxy shade Alison rn when she could just coast on this thunderdome if she's a wolf?

pyxxy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:57 am .......I ain't.......sleepwalking.......shit.......

.......I'm trying.......to balance.......the fact that....... I have read..............but..............y'all created a novella.......mostly composed.......of thunderdoming.......to each other.......

.......ultimately for me.......I don't understand.......your play.......Camilla.......if you are town.......

.......or at least.......it's not.......how I play..............and so it's harder.......for me..............to process.......

.......god knows....... I've played enough mafia now.......to watch.......my legacy.......get..............ignored.......many times.......

.......what you are doing.......here.......has not struck me.......as trying.......to leave a clear legacy.......

.......let me be clear.......I've been powerwolfed before.......I freaked out.......at lucy/robyn for it.......and was pretty upset irl.......but.......it was my first time.......

....................................................................................................................................................................................................

.......if Jack.......pulls that "oopsie" shit.......he dies.......no question.......and I'll lose to roxy/alison.......

....................................................................................................................................................................................................

.......so anyways.......your legacy is kill Jack.......unless I've missed something?.......

.......your reasoning.......is.......*waves at the entire thread for this phase*.......+ J afks wolf slots.......+ Porscha for real mad D1.......

.......it's a good case.......and you should feel good about presenting it..............and it fits my D1 thoughts.......

Can you not do the bolded?

I've already said that the bulk of my case on Jack boils down to his treatment of Wilgy's slot where there was a drastic pivot the moment that it was clear that Wilgy would always go over which feels unnatural as fuck.

I was slightly suspicious of J dipping but that's not why I want Jack dead today.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:53 am @Camilla hypothetical: we exe jack, he flips town

Your next move is?

Re-eval the shit out of Pyxxy/Roxy as in this world then it's someone in that pairing as I have you basically nigh-IC at this point.

Most likely Roxy as she doesn't really have the same levels of non-W/W interactions as Pyxxy does and a lot of the things I'm TR'ing her for such as the needless suspicion on you and her town entitlement isn't impossible to fake.

If you guys aren't going to listen to me even after I fucking flip V then what's the fucking point in me staying here?

If you all just end up sleepwalking into a b2b Roxy/Me Mls while Jack keeps pushing this "Oh, I told you guys that we shouldn't have thunderdomed me and Camilla and now Roxy is the actual wolf" BS then that's the fucking point?

I've been pushing J's fucking slot since D2 because I know that he has a tendency to ghost games when he rands as a wolf but suddenly now I'm fucking responsible for mislynching Rondo/Falcon when I wanted J's slot gone and that I was the second person on Wilgy.

I don't think my time here's being respected my I'm screaming the shit for you all to kill a player and you all are just going to ignore that and elim me and then another player outside of this dome.

pyxxy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:41 am .......I'm being lazy.......with no case.......but.......if we're wrong here..............I'm sussing roxy.......

..............as Alison said..............no guarantees..............if we're wrong.......I try hard..............do not fear.......about me..............sleepwalking.......

.......but.......slank cover.......to the max.......tbh.......and today..............would theoretically.......be..............letting town..............tear itself apart.......

...at this point it makes me wonder why the fuck am I still trying to play this game when this shit's just unwinnable.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:30 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:28 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:27 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:25 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:23 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:22 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:19 am > What wolf Jack would actually do) Pretebd to be tunneled on you.

I agree with this. It is why I decided against voting Jack. I thought to myself what would wolf Jack never do and unvoting Camilla is one of them. He can never win with Camilla alive, never.

I just iso'd pyxxy and found him town. Roxy would have just taken the free Cam -> Jack misexes probably.

So for me it was just Camilla left. And the best defense she had is that she has no path to victory if mafia. That's something that could, I guess, happen if she really is mafia and got boxed in.

If I'm missing something... you have 30 minutes to convince me otherwise, and that's mostly because I'm having trouble sleeping lok
Jack can't afford to pull this tunnel shit because I'm a villager.

He needs at least one more player to ML to fulfill his wincon.

W!Jack is never making out of this thunderdome alive so he needs to ideally mislynch a third party before killing me, and that's Roxy.
But why BEFORE you?

Why not yeet you now and “reevaluate” in F3?
Because do you seriously believe that you can get away in an F3 after a flipped villager was screaming their head off to kill you?

Absolutely nonsense.
Can he get away in f3 after killing an innocent roxy with his bare hands in f5 and disrupting the tdome?
I mean, you/Pyxxy seem to be hellbent on voting me over him.
I would be a lot less hellbent if he forced the wagons onto roxy and she flipped town

Since duh

And why do you think that he's doing this?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:27 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:25 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:23 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:22 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:19 am > What wolf Jack would actually do) Pretebd to be tunneled on you.

I agree with this. It is why I decided against voting Jack. I thought to myself what would wolf Jack never do and unvoting Camilla is one of them. He can never win with Camilla alive, never.

I just iso'd pyxxy and found him town. Roxy would have just taken the free Cam -> Jack misexes probably.

So for me it was just Camilla left. And the best defense she had is that she has no path to victory if mafia. That's something that could, I guess, happen if she really is mafia and got boxed in.

If I'm missing something... you have 30 minutes to convince me otherwise, and that's mostly because I'm having trouble sleeping lok
Jack can't afford to pull this tunnel shit because I'm a villager.

He needs at least one more player to ML to fulfill his wincon.

W!Jack is never making out of this thunderdome alive so he needs to ideally mislynch a third party before killing me, and that's Roxy.
But why BEFORE you?

Why not yeet you now and “reevaluate” in F3?
Because do you seriously believe that you can get away in an F3 after a flipped villager was screaming their head off to kill you?

Absolutely nonsense.
Can he get away in f3 after killing an innocent roxy with his bare hands in f5 and disrupting the tdome?

I mean, you/Pyxxy seem to be hellbent on voting me over him.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:23 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:22 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:19 am > What wolf Jack would actually do) Pretebd to be tunneled on you.

I agree with this. It is why I decided against voting Jack. I thought to myself what would wolf Jack never do and unvoting Camilla is one of them. He can never win with Camilla alive, never.

I just iso'd pyxxy and found him town. Roxy would have just taken the free Cam -> Jack misexes probably.

So for me it was just Camilla left. And the best defense she had is that she has no path to victory if mafia. That's something that could, I guess, happen if she really is mafia and got boxed in.

If I'm missing something... you have 30 minutes to convince me otherwise, and that's mostly because I'm having trouble sleeping lok
Jack can't afford to pull this tunnel shit because I'm a villager.

He needs at least one more player to ML to fulfill his wincon.

W!Jack is never making out of this thunderdome alive so he needs to ideally mislynch a third party before killing me, and that's Roxy.
But why BEFORE you?

Why not yeet you now and “reevaluate” in F3?

Because do you seriously believe that you can get away in an F3 after a flipped villager was screaming their head off to kill you?

Absolutely nonsense.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:21 am @Camilla You said you think Roxy is the doctor? Doesn't wolf Jack prefer to elim you at F5 where Roxy will vote with him insteaf of F3 where he has to kill her because she's doc?

Assuming that my PR read is right.

If it's not then going Roxy->Me is the ideal path for him.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:19 am > What wolf Jack would actually do) Pretebd to be tunneled on you.

I agree with this. It is why I decided against voting Jack. I thought to myself what would wolf Jack never do and unvoting Camilla is one of them. He can never win with Camilla alive, never.

I just iso'd pyxxy and found him town. Roxy would have just taken the free Cam -> Jack misexes probably.

So for me it was just Camilla left. And the best defense she had is that she has no path to victory if mafia. That's something that could, I guess, happen if she really is mafia and got boxed in.

If I'm missing something... you have 30 minutes to convince me otherwise, and that's mostly because I'm having trouble sleeping lok

Jack can't afford to pull this tunnel shit because I'm a villager.

He needs at least one more player to ML to fulfill his wincon.

W!Jack is never making out of this thunderdome alive so he needs to ideally mislynch a third party before killing me, and that's Roxy.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:13 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:05 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:53 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:46 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:42 am Ridiculous how Jack is trying to blatantly widen the PoE with the "maaaaaaybe Camilla's town and Roxy's kinda wolfing" but you all are falling for his bullshit.
I think you’re town. I know I’m town.

What should t!Jack be doing instead of looking at the other players?
It’s super frustrating continually watching you look at a situation like

Jack: 1+1 = 2
Camilla: Wolf Jack would totally do this!
Jack: But wouldn’t town Jack also do this?

Granted, this is part of why I’m thinking your town. Like…maybe this is exactly the act I would put on if I was a wolf in your shoes but…I just don’t think it’s an act. I think you really think it’s just always me. And I get it! I also have a hard time seeing a world where there’s a wolf in Roxy/Pyxxy/Alison. In your shoes, I would suspect me just as in my shoes, I’ve suspected you. Frustrating as it is, I think it’s real. When I go “Player X is being sooooo frustrating. Why won’t they see things from my perspective?” they’re town 9 times out of 10.

Fmpov, I not only have to find the wolf but I have to convince players who want to shrug vote you of the real wolf and convince you of the real wolf and it’s not happening. I haven’t even completed step 1 and I have no faith in my ability to complete those other steps. I should probably ignore step 3 for now but here we are. Cause I’m strongly feeling that when we misyeet in Camilla/Jack, we misyeet the other tomorrow ftl.
So here's how I'm seeing shit.

You're fully aware that if I get miselim'd here then you know that you'll be elim'd tomorrow, and there's nothing that you can do to change that.

So ideal play for W!You is for you to lynch someone outside of me/you so you can thunderdome me tomorrow and win because the village play in this match has simply been absolute garbage where we've been going from LHF to LHF because Wilgy/you were not playing the damn game until like mid-game and they'll eat up whatever you post easily tomorrow.

I don't see why the hell you suddenly had this change of heart going "Oh, Camilla's a villager so let's wagon Roxy" as it feels like you're going after the path of least resistance being that Alison is unlynchable and she's also hard-shielding Pyxxy, so the only path you have to victory is me/Roxy.

Obviously if Roxy is mislynched today then tomorrow odds are that the person in Pyxxy/Alison that remains alive will vote me without hesitation, giving you the win.

Why aren't you challenging Alison's read of Pyxxy here? Why is it the easiest answer that you're going after?
Why does wolf Jack want to go outside Camilla/Jack today and into Camilla/Jack tomorrow instead of the other way around? Play it out. And please please please please please actually answer me, here. Please. I’m begging.

Your proposal) I have to wolf case a townie today, drawing their scumread on me. I now have 2 out of 5 players almost certain to vote me. If I’m convincing and get that misyeet, I go into F3 looking entirely responsible for the misyeet at F5 AND I still have you voting me and suspecting me out the gate in F3.

What wolf Jack would actually do) Pretebd to be tunneled on you. Yeet you, here. Much much easier than yeeting Alison/Pyxxy/Roxy. Does not earn me the ire of any remaining players. Then in F3, case a player. That player spends less time suspecting me and I get to say “Obviously, I’m a townie who really thought Camilla was a wolf. I didn’t plan for F3. I didn’t try to open the POE. Im town.”

Please please please please answer this. Why do you think I wolf me wouldn’t just yeet you today?

So how exactly did you go from "Camilla is locked wolf from interactions with Wilgy" to where you're at now?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:53 am
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:46 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:42 am Ridiculous how Jack is trying to blatantly widen the PoE with the "maaaaaaybe Camilla's town and Roxy's kinda wolfing" but you all are falling for his bullshit.
I think you’re town. I know I’m town.

What should t!Jack be doing instead of looking at the other players?
It’s super frustrating continually watching you look at a situation like

Jack: 1+1 = 2
Camilla: Wolf Jack would totally do this!
Jack: But wouldn’t town Jack also do this?

Granted, this is part of why I’m thinking your town. Like…maybe this is exactly the act I would put on if I was a wolf in your shoes but…I just don’t think it’s an act. I think you really think it’s just always me. And I get it! I also have a hard time seeing a world where there’s a wolf in Roxy/Pyxxy/Alison. In your shoes, I would suspect me just as in my shoes, I’ve suspected you. Frustrating as it is, I think it’s real. When I go “Player X is being sooooo frustrating. Why won’t they see things from my perspective?” they’re town 9 times out of 10.

Fmpov, I not only have to find the wolf but I have to convince players who want to shrug vote you of the real wolf and convince you of the real wolf and it’s not happening. I haven’t even completed step 1 and I have no faith in my ability to complete those other steps. I should probably ignore step 3 for now but here we are. Cause I’m strongly feeling that when we misyeet in Camilla/Jack, we misyeet the other tomorrow ftl.

So here's how I'm seeing shit.

You're fully aware that if I get miselim'd here then you know that you'll be elim'd tomorrow, and there's nothing that you can do to change that.

So ideal play for W!You is for you to lynch someone outside of me/you so you can thunderdome me tomorrow and win because the village play in this match has simply been absolute garbage where we've been going from LHF to LHF because Wilgy/you were not playing the damn game until like mid-game and they'll eat up whatever you post easily tomorrow.

I don't see why the hell you suddenly had this change of heart going "Oh, Camilla's a villager so let's wagon Roxy" as it feels like you're going after the path of least resistance being that Alison is unlynchable and she's also hard-shielding Pyxxy, so the only path you have to victory is me/Roxy.

Obviously if Roxy is mislynched today then tomorrow odds are that the person in Pyxxy/Alison that remains alive will vote me without hesitation, giving you the win.

Why aren't you challenging Alison's read of Pyxxy here? Why is it the easiest answer that you're going after?

Ridiculous how Jack is trying to blatantly widen the PoE with the "maaaaaaybe Camilla's town and Roxy's kinda wolfing" but you all are falling for his bullshit.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:36 am I have to sleep

[VOTE: Camilla] aubergine

Hope I wake up to the game having ended.

Consider how everyone else is gonna vote me, then you won't.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:53 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:52 am Overall iso looks pretty clean. Doesn't have a perfect track record of pushing on wolves but nobody in this game has and I had similar reads D3 myself. Has been pushed by wolves and pushed them in ways that don't look like theater. Some micro interactions that I'm skeptical most wolves think to fake. Seems to be playing nonsensically D4 if he is partners with Wilgy.

Pretty confident Wilgy is town.
Uhh, pretty confident pyxxy* is town. :P

Aight, pretty sure that me/Jack always ends up in a town victory this way.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:46 pm I'll reread pyxxy to double check in the evening

Fair point that roxy would just take the camilla/jack chain exes, i just squinty eyed at her suddenly deciding I was a top suspect after ignoring me all game, and for bad reasons too

I think it's just level 1 paranoia.

Strong player still alive despite that they've managed to nab two wolves which while it would be logical to be paranoid of this in a normal game we still have a doctor alive and thus these kills can be justified by doc dodging.

I still think your dayplay D4 should make you an IC as you had no reason to shift the elim onto Wilgy.

@Alison

Are you absolutely sure on your Pyxxy TR? If that read is correct then I never see any other worlds except for Jack.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:57 pm For the record legit thinking everyone left in a game is town is one of my very favorite parts of mafia.

Like, if it’s not you/me then who exactly is it?

The only other alternative I see here is if Pyxxy simultaneously had a breakout game to fool Alison while his entire team tried to hellbus him and I don’t think this is even slightly likely.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:49 pm I just don’t think Camilla is wolf me you know?

To win, she needs to yeet me first, then find the doc, then yeet someone else tomorrow. I don’t see her trying hard enough to do any of that.

I still think me/you always wins the game and we have a free miselim.

My main concern rn is that I’m reading both Roxy/Alison as very strong V’s and if I get miselim’d today and Roxy/Alison end up voting each other then town just loses here.

It’s basically why I’ve been frustrated as hell with the former as it’s basically throwing to tinfoil the player that could’ve feed a TvT rather than Hellbus their partner that has been completely UTR.

I still feel like it’s just Jack as literally everyone else is tinfoiling and going “but what if Roxy/Alison are snowing us?” but Pyxxy and Pyxxy was hard pushed by 2 wolves.

And there’s basically not point in expanding the PoE unless you’re Jack as the gane would be on auto.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:13 pm for example a thought that keeps coming to my mind is, why does camilla let herself be strongarmed into voting wilgy? she had enough clout to refuse and size 20 all caps into another exe at the time that I pinged her. Does she just shrug and let me coerce her into voting the rb when the doc is alive?

This is a no but I don’t think anyone alive would have have enough meta with me to know that, unfortunately.

Like, my PoV is that I’m pretty much certain that the game basically is on auto provided that Jack dies after me. I wasn’t that worried about Jack endgaming until Roxy popped up and declared her intention to throw in the F3 by tinfoiling Alison so if I get elim’d today then the game’s just over.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:08 pm Re: "why is Alison so uncertain at f5" it is harder to make the decision for me than it is for you. I've pretty clearly implied that Jack has been townier than Camilla today (and I think the last page or twi especially) but keep in mind that just sod2 I had camilla as a top townread and jack as poe and possibly partnered with wilgy.

I want to get it right at f5 too. I am cognizant of the possibility I am being snowed and it worries me that Roxy seems to be trying to set up Camilla -> Alison chain exes because I keep going back to the possibility she is the wolf fucking with us.

There is a 90-95% chance its just jack or camilla - and yes I do lean towards voting camilla right now - but the 5-10% worries me which is why I am taking my time.

Also if Roxy is a wolf then why doesn’t she just take the easy Jack/Camilla elims and instead tries to push the elim onto you?

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:08 pm Re: "why is Alison so uncertain at f5" it is harder to make the decision for me than it is for you. I've pretty clearly implied that Jack has been townier than Camilla today (and I think the last page or twi especially) but keep in mind that just sod2 I had camilla as a top townread and jack as poe and possibly partnered with wilgy.

I want to get it right at f5 too. I am cognizant of the possibility I am being snowed and it worries me that Roxy seems to be trying to set up Camilla -> Alison chain exes because I keep going back to the possibility she is the wolf fucking with us.

There is a 90-95% chance its just jack or camilla - and yes I do lean towards voting camilla right now - but the 5-10% worries me which is why I am taking my time.

How exactly had Jack been townier than me?

Like the game FMPoV is solved and it can be auto’d provided that Roxy doesn’t do something like snap-vote you tomorrow.

I don’t know what else I could be doing here outside of trying to convince you/pyxxy to vote him.

This is basically why I want him to die today instead of me as since y’all think I’m wolfing then it’d end up with the same result as if we killed me today then him tomorrow but there’s less risk of Roxy gamethrowing.

Like, what I’m seeing rn is that you’re concerned about my dome working go bring you down tomorrow if I get elim’d today.

And if I’m a wolf and I get elim’d then the game just ends. There shouldn’t be any fear or hesitation behind your push on me if you’re this certain I’m wolfing.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:46 pm Like I have genuinely tried to consider worlds where Camilla is town. If I’m wrong and she’s a townie, I have tried over and over to get there and I just can’t. The wolf outplayed you. The wolf outplayed me. But I’m trying. I really am. I’m looking at every angle. I’m trying to see if I’ve been pocketed by my townreads. I’m isoing everyone. And I’m explaining to you why your reasons for suspecting me are wrong, Camilla. And I’m trying to not just shoot back like “oh you saying you think X is outting.” Kinda failing at that.

Like if I’m right and you’re the wolf, the game is already won. Nothing done now matters. Even if you yeet me today, 99% chance you get eliminated tomorrow. GG. So I’m trying to focus on possibilities where I’m wrong. And I would hope that town Camilla would be doing that too. But you’re not.

I’m seeing continued pushing on me that looks dishonest. And I think it comes from a wolf, I think you don’t really think those things. But if you do, we’re in bad shape and we need to do something about it and you continually pushing on me this way is keeping both of us from reevaluating.

This is silly to even say. You’re probably a wolf and if you’re not, you’re probably too tunneled and if you’re not, you probably still don’t find something I don’t after I iso everyone. I just feel bad. Like if I’m wrong, you’re having a really really bad time and it’s my fault and I want you to know I really am doing my best, here.

If we’re both villagers then who’s the last wolf? I struggle hard to ever see this world.

I can’t see a world where you’re just not it as I struggle to see a world where either Alison/Roxy/Pyxxy are wolves and you do too but you keep waffling between your conviction here.

If you actually believed I was a wolf then you wouldn’t be this concerned about the what-if if the game continues as if I’m a wolf then the game just ends.

Unfortunately I’m sick af today so I can’t do much.

@Alison
@pyxxy

If you want me to towncase myself then check my reaction to Tutuu putting Wilgy as his top townread SoD2.

This never comes from a wolf as I’d know that Wilgy is W and that Tutuu was not a cop.

Sadly won’t be on again until tomorrow but that should basically clear me.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:30 pm I’m not claiming because gametheory says not to claim.

Camilla flips wolf -> doesn’t matter if I claim or not
Camilla flips town -> much better that I haven’t claimed
I flip -> doesn’t matter if I claim or not

It doesn’t matter how little I think scenario 2 happens. There’s no scenario where me claiming helps.

If tomorrow happens and I’m still alive and the doctor hasn’t flipped, I claim first.

Wolf Jack doesn’t get this advantage of getting to choose who to go after tomorrow that Cam is claiming I’m trying to get.

I’m honestly sick of the dishonesty. I know this is mafia but come on.

Fine with this proposal provided Roxy actually thinks critically about the game rather than just tinfoil the person who nabbed two wolves.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:39 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 12:34 am Falcon and rondo have no reason to be trusted

Prince J has the "porscha would have pinged him to play in wolf chat" but maybe he was genuinely busy IRL and couldnt regardless

Just kill in one of these ig
I can call this bad if I squint but Wilgy (and Camilla) is (are) firmly in Alison's POE atp and she's said nothing good about them.

I mean, I had you/Wilgy in my PoE and I had a towncore d2 of me/Tutuu/Alison/Zenon with an outer town of Scotty/Roxy.

I wanted you dead since d2 but I had to compromise because the town was too obsessed with Rondo/Falcon and so we had to waste d2/d3 chasing those stupid-ass wagons.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:03 pm I don't know Cam well enough to say if that's valid or not.

FTR, as a wolf I care a lot about thread positioning. I never get put in places like this as a wolf due to that.

If I were a wolf here then I'd probably have pushed Wilgy as distancing d2/d3 because I know that these sorts of lack of associative always fuck wolves hard endgame.

I didn't care much about getting you elim'd today and tomorrow worked as well but since we actually have two wolves left so if I die here then the village just loses.

Like, Roxy's unfortunately another villager.

There's basically no need for her to put Alison in the PoE when Me/Jack would be an easy path to the F3.

@Alison
@pyxxy

Just vote Jack today and turbo me tomorrow if I'm wrong.

I'm extremely confident that this just ends the game in between J's meta where he struggles to get into games as a wolf, how Jack treated Wilgy's slot, how clear everyone else is such as Wilgy being pushed on by wolves and Alison's and Roxy
s dayplay, and his entire treatment of me such as how he's waffling non-stop between "THIS IS ALWAYS MAFIA" and "BUT IF THE GAME DOESN'T END THEN LOLJACK"

Jack knows that if I get elim'd today then the game will continue. That's why he has repeatedly refused to stick to a claim.

I didn't care about it earlier as I doubt that he'd be able to endgame after today but the fact that Roxy is playing as a fourth wolf and making an Alison/me PoE changed this entire dynamic.

Like I said before, if I die here then Pyxxy just dies and Roxy will potentially throw the game tomorrow by tinfoiling and voting Alison out of paranoia when she should be as good as clear over her dayplay d4.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:00 pm
Roxy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:54 am It's my granddaughter day but we must sort Alison/Camilla.

Yep I posted all about Camilla last day and to day I'll be reading Alison.

Both firmly in the poe.

Alison is a bus driver - self admitted. Wishy washy reads that contradict often.
Camilla is event I posted yesterday.

After I have time a properly read Alison

I'll be back

@pyxxy @Jackofhearts2005 will you also really dive into Alison?

@cami
Gonna. Meant to and honestly, I'm getting a bit antsy about Camilla.

Idk if wolf Camilla does anything different. Gets strongarmed into voting Wilgy. Fails to open the POE. Gets strongly suspected by a few townies and at least in the POE of all others. Maybe "push a worldview where Jack is the last wolf and I don't care about getting yeeted and then figure out who to misyeet tomorrow" is the best strategy for w!Camilla. Sometimes wolves are in a box and have to push for the best they have that won't get them turboed and being in that situation doesn't make them town.

But still. Camilla doesn't have a clear path towards a wolf win that she's pursuing here. And a town Camilla flip today would be all sorts of bad for the town. I don't have a better idea. I basically have Alison, Pyxxy and Roxy all cleared and I've been on record of being so sure of my solve that I'd be okay going first. If Camilla flips town, we lose. I still think it's just her but gah, I have to consider the possibility it's not or I'm not playing to my wincon. And as much as Alison has felt townie and as much as I think pushing Wilgy yesterday isn't what wolf Alison does yesterday, it's still the one angle I haven't given a fair look towards.

Bolded one is lol.

Like I said before. You've been all "I AM SO FUCKING SURE THAT CAMILLA IS THE LAST WOLF HERE" but you never really commit to this shtick and go "AS SOMEONE WHO IS TOWN I AM OBLIGATED TO CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF ALL WORLDS 'CAUSE IF CAMILLA IS TOWN THEN WE JUST LOSE" because you fucking know that I'm town.

This is the F5. Alison/Roxy are bleeding town while Pyxxy got hardpushed by two wolves. And the doctor is in one of these three. FYPoV I should be as good as red checked but you are always wussing out and never 100% committing to the act.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:51 pm I guess this isn't too too far from "Camilla gives up atp."

I mean, you should be outed after your horrid progression on Wilgy where you went from "Wilgy is very towny but juuuuuuust outside my towncore" to "Wilgy is lockscum and I'm even looking for partner interactions between him" but the level of towning here is simply atrocious and nobody's bothering to actually play WW.

Roxy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:08 am Ok then fuck it.
The game doesn't need me I'll stop here and do nothing since it doesn't matter.

Sorry, but I haven't slept in hours so I'm in a fairly foul mood.

Roxy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:02 am
Camilla wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:59 am
Roxy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:54 am It's my granddaughter day but we must sort Alison/Camilla.

Yep I posted all about Camilla last day and to day I'll be reading Alison.

Both firmly in the poe.

Alison is a bus driver - self admitted. Wishy washy reads that contradict often.
Camilla is event I posted yesterday.

After I have time a properly read Alison

I'll be back

@pyxxy @Jackofhearts2005 will you also really dive into Alison?

@cami
Alison never flips wolf here.

If she were then D4 she would just let me/Jack/Pyxxy tunnel each other rather than bus Wilgy.

She's not the kind of player to make such a throw.

Especially as she was the main pusher behind the D1 wolf lynch while both PRs were not outed.
Ok in your opinion. I've seen it all playing for over 15 years. So yes I've seen mafia do weirder shit than this.

I'm going to play my way.

Unless you just want me to vote you now without making sure I'm right.

Do I look like I care about your vote?

I have zero faith that you'd ever vote correctly here so I'm treating you as the fourth member of the wolfteam.

The town's wincon effectively boils down to killing Jack today so it's up to Pyxxy to vote correctly.

@pyxxy

Just swap your vote to Jack.

If I die today then it's GG.

Even if I were a wolf then I'd just die tomorrow while Jack has a realistic chance of endgaming.

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